6 ms·

I really don't feel that's a fair comparison. The transgender community needs to stop pushing the notion that it's healthy and desirable; it's not - it's a dev

by yarg 4y ago

I really don't feel that's a fair comparison. The transgender community needs to stop pushing the notion that it's healthy and desirable; it's not - it's a devastating hormonal/fertility disorder. We can't even look into the extent to which the androgenisation of humanity is the consequence of the pollutants that we've introduced into the environment. Now, comparing this to trans-humanist body mods - how many of those result in sterility? The changes that trans-humans want are intended to extend the capabilities of the human; but a sex change leaves an individual in a physically compromised super-position of the body that they were born with, and the body that fits the mind.

jeremysalwen 4y ago
> trans people make body modifications that don't prioritize my values (fertility) Doesn't seem like a very strong argument that it doesn't fit into the cyberpunk ethos. Modifying your body for reasons you care about seems very cyberpunk, and exactly the sort of thing that other people would have moral qualms over, especially if they don't share your values. Certainly the technology could be improved for people who do care about fertility, but, well, newer, improved versions of body modification technology is also very cyberpunk.
- yarg 4y ago
  A disingenuously paraphrasing quote? Sure thing. But I'm not espousing my values, but values vital to the continuation of life. Values that have been around for thousands of millions of years. Perhaps there's the potential for this to change, but it'll just be fertility in another form.
  - LesZedCB 4y ago
    who cares though? species have come and gone, and will continue too if you died and then a millisecond after a chicxulub scale asteroid obliterated all mammalian life (again), who would be there to care about fucking fertility or propagation of the species?? the point is we don't have to be limited to biological mandates -- that's what transhumanism is about. moralizing it is just wasted and you clearly don't understand what it's about. instead you decide to whinge about trans people being mentally ill. please
    - yarg 4y ago
      Where did I say that they were mentally ill? (Misremembering other people's arguments is a poor strategy in a technical forum.) And regardless of what transhumanism as a whole is about, it will always be about continuation of sapience and its evolution through time. Biological or otherwise.
      - LesZedCB 4y ago
        > The transgender community needs to stop pushing the notion that it's healthy and desirable; it's not - it's a devastating hormonal/fertility disorder. what exactly is your word for unhealthy and undesirable? you are clearly referring to dysphoria. i don't know if you realized, but the DSM has changed in recent years.
        yarg 4y ago
        No mention of mental illness there, but you already knew that.
        LesZedCB 4y ago
        sorry, you just disagree with them being happy even if it makes them infertile. classic intellectually dishonest HN concern troll
        stale2002 4y ago
        If you stopped acting in bad faith, looking for some gotcha, for one single second, you'd realize that by "unhealthly" they were referring to the effects of hormone treatments, which clearly have significant effects and side effects on the physical body.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 4y ago
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - space_fountain 4y ago
    The human race isn’t in an immediate danger of dying out for lack of babies. People are allowed to and do take many actions with a risk of sterilization. For goodness sake’s people get vasectomies and their tubes tied. This can’t be about fertility or else you should be out campaigning against the pill, condoms, and just plain old normal drinking. Also do you imagine grafting electronics, really progress of any kind to be free of risks? Honestly, I’m sort of anti cyberpunk, because that sort of body modification is on a whole different level of risk
    - yarg 4y ago
      I can assure you, my only concern here is inate fertility - (idiocracy aside) I don't give a shit about people deciding not to have children. As for the danger, population collapse is often precipitous - and by the time you notice it, is very hard to roll back. And it's not just our species impacted by the changes.
      - space_fountain 4y ago
        Ok, so are you also against birth control and or opt in sterilization, otherwise your position is inconsistent and I don’t claim morals are logic, but they should at least be consistent. Oh also since we’re on a technicality forum. Trans hormones don’t necessarily cause permanent sterilization. Plenty of trans people have children
        ungamedplayer 4y ago
        Citation for plenty needed.
        simonh 4y ago
        https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15295192.2020.1792194 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15295192.2020.1... > Of the adult trans population, between 25% and 49% of individuals are believed to be parents (Dierckx, Motmans, Mortelmans, & T’sjoen, 2016)
  - sangnoir 4y ago
    > But I'm not espousing my values, but values vital to the continuation of life. > Values that have been around for thousands of millions of years. I could make the same arguments about modern therapeutics for asthma and short-sightedness being againsts millions of years of nature.
  - Emma_Goldman 4y ago
    >"But I'm not espousing my values, but values vital to the continuation of life." There are no self-grounding values. You cannot objectively justify why fertility is the overriding value here, rather than, say, fairness, liberty or anything else. So yes, you are absolutely espousing your values. If you want to make an argument, make it, don't pretend it's self-evident.
    - yarg 4y ago
      Not all of your ancestors had lives that were free or fair, but every last one of them was fertile.
      - simonh 4y ago
        Humans are a communal species, our cultures and psychology include behaviour that sacrifices our own personal reproductive chances in favour of the survival of the group, or simply deprecates personal reproduction as a priority. It’s genetic propagation by proxy, and it’s called kin selection or genetic altruism in the literature. A member of society can contribute to the survival and propagation of that society in many ways, propagating the group genome, and that doesn’t have to include through personal reproduction. We have all benefited from the contributions made by members of past generations that didn’t reproduce, but their genes live on through their relatives that did reproduce. If all we care about is survival of the species, the best thing for all of us is that trans people get the help and support they need to leave the healthiest and most fulfilling lives possible, so that they can maximally contribute to society. I think that’s an overly reductive attitude, but that’s one way of thinking about it.
      - lljk_kennedy 4y ago
        What of people who were fertile but didn’t have children, through choice, medical reasons, death etc? Surely a person who is fertile but doesn’t have a child for any reason has the same net impact on the growth of population as an unfertile person (trans or not)?
        yarg 4y ago
- edflsafoiewq 4y ago
  Cyberpunk != transhumanism
- taylorius 4y ago
  Is an amputee cyberpunk?
  - space_fountain 4y ago
    Yeah if your replacing it with something better for you
Rodeoclash 4y ago
You mention sterility. As a thought experiment, what if the science was perfected that you could change gender perfectly (ala The Culture novels). Would you still feel the same way about it?
- fallingfrog 4y ago
  Personally I think that would fantastic and fun. Who wouldn’t want to see what life is like on the other side?
  - the_omegist 4y ago
    95 to 99% of the population...
    - fallingfrog 4y ago
      But if there was no real downside in terms of social stigma, and it was totally reversible? You don’t think most people would want to switch just out of curiosity?
- yarg 4y ago
  Grow a hollow in a vat and insert the brain? It'd be prohibitively expensive for most, but why not?
  - Rodeoclash 4y ago
    It was free in the culture novels. So, the problem is with the fact we can't do it properly yet? Also, you mentioned environmental factors, is that thinking based on a paper or similar?
    - yarg 4y ago
      https://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=endocrine+disruptors+population&hl=en&oi=scholart https://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=endocrine+disruptors+...
fzeroracer 4y ago
There are a million things more dangerous to the continuation of the human race than a few people willingly becoming sterile to solve other issues with their body. For decades we were shoving lead into gasoline and poisoning an entire generation for the sake of more money, for example. And the 'androgenization of humanity' seems like some nonsense, considering there's zero data or otherwise to back that up.
- fastball 4y ago
  > a few people willingly becoming sterile to solve other issues with their body. Most of the controversy around trans issues that I've seen would not exist if this was the only dimension to it.
  - fzeroracer 4y ago
    Most of the controversy around trans issues is made up nonsense being pushed by a propaganda machine pining to politicize an entire group of people. The same group of people that have turned towards trying to harass gay, lesbian etc individuals because they know they can harness a certain virulent part of their base to harass and antagonize people.
    - fastball 4y ago
      Citation needed.
    - blakebreeder 4y ago
      how convenient. relegating any concern for the modern trans movement to pure malevolence. I guess it makes it easier for you.
      - fzeroracer 4y ago
        By all means, if you think you can come up with any issues or concerns that don't involve the typical political talking points then please, do so.
0dayz 4y ago
I mean you're quite frankly arguing with a straw man, and being vague with the word "healthy", no trans community is advocating that taking opposite hormones is physically healthy. They push for it because that's the only viable option for them to appear as the opposite gender which helps them mentally. Although it is funny you're in a way talking about how men are turning into femboy meme.
wardedVibe 4y ago
Oh, so the reason conservatives are concerned about the birth rate is so they have ammo against gay, trans, and women on the pill. Got it. I was wondering why an issue that won't be a major concern until after 2100 was becoming popular.
fit2rule 4y ago

by yarg 4y ago

jeremysalwen 4y ago

> trans people make body modifications that don't prioritize my values (fertility) Doesn't seem like a very strong argument that it doesn't fit into the cyberpunk ethos. Modifying your body for reasons you care about seems very cyberpunk, and exactly the sort of thing that other people would have moral qualms over, especially if they don't share your values. Certainly the technology could be improved for people who do care about fertility, but, well, newer, improved versions of body modification technology is also very cyberpunk.

yarg 4y ago
A disingenuously paraphrasing quote? Sure thing. But I'm not espousing my values, but values vital to the continuation of life. Values that have been around for thousands of millions of years. Perhaps there's the potential for this to change, but it'll just be fertility in another form.
- LesZedCB 4y ago
  who cares though? species have come and gone, and will continue too if you died and then a millisecond after a chicxulub scale asteroid obliterated all mammalian life (again), who would be there to care about fucking fertility or propagation of the species?? the point is we don't have to be limited to biological mandates -- that's what transhumanism is about. moralizing it is just wasted and you clearly don't understand what it's about. instead you decide to whinge about trans people being mentally ill. please
  - yarg 4y ago
    Where did I say that they were mentally ill? (Misremembering other people's arguments is a poor strategy in a technical forum.) And regardless of what transhumanism as a whole is about, it will always be about continuation of sapience and its evolution through time. Biological or otherwise.
    - LesZedCB 4y ago
      > The transgender community needs to stop pushing the notion that it's healthy and desirable; it's not - it's a devastating hormonal/fertility disorder. what exactly is your word for unhealthy and undesirable? you are clearly referring to dysphoria. i don't know if you realized, but the DSM has changed in recent years.
      - yarg 4y ago
        No mention of mental illness there, but you already knew that.
        LesZedCB 4y ago
        sorry, you just disagree with them being happy even if it makes them infertile. classic intellectually dishonest HN concern troll
        stale2002 4y ago
        If you stopped acting in bad faith, looking for some gotcha, for one single second, you'd realize that by "unhealthly" they were referring to the effects of hormone treatments, which clearly have significant effects and side effects on the physical body.
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        deleted 4y ago
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- space_fountain 4y ago
  The human race isn’t in an immediate danger of dying out for lack of babies. People are allowed to and do take many actions with a risk of sterilization. For goodness sake’s people get vasectomies and their tubes tied. This can’t be about fertility or else you should be out campaigning against the pill, condoms, and just plain old normal drinking. Also do you imagine grafting electronics, really progress of any kind to be free of risks? Honestly, I’m sort of anti cyberpunk, because that sort of body modification is on a whole different level of risk
  - yarg 4y ago
    I can assure you, my only concern here is inate fertility - (idiocracy aside) I don't give a shit about people deciding not to have children. As for the danger, population collapse is often precipitous - and by the time you notice it, is very hard to roll back. And it's not just our species impacted by the changes.
    - space_fountain 4y ago
      Ok, so are you also against birth control and or opt in sterilization, otherwise your position is inconsistent and I don’t claim morals are logic, but they should at least be consistent. Oh also since we’re on a technicality forum. Trans hormones don’t necessarily cause permanent sterilization. Plenty of trans people have children
      - ungamedplayer 4y ago
        Citation for plenty needed.
        simonh 4y ago
        https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15295192.2020.1792194 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15295192.2020.1... > Of the adult trans population, between 25% and 49% of individuals are believed to be parents (Dierckx, Motmans, Mortelmans, & T’sjoen, 2016)
- sangnoir 4y ago
  > But I'm not espousing my values, but values vital to the continuation of life. > Values that have been around for thousands of millions of years. I could make the same arguments about modern therapeutics for asthma and short-sightedness being againsts millions of years of nature.
- Emma_Goldman 4y ago
  >"But I'm not espousing my values, but values vital to the continuation of life." There are no self-grounding values. You cannot objectively justify why fertility is the overriding value here, rather than, say, fairness, liberty or anything else. So yes, you are absolutely espousing your values. If you want to make an argument, make it, don't pretend it's self-evident.
  - yarg 4y ago
    Not all of your ancestors had lives that were free or fair, but every last one of them was fertile.
    - simonh 4y ago
      Humans are a communal species, our cultures and psychology include behaviour that sacrifices our own personal reproductive chances in favour of the survival of the group, or simply deprecates personal reproduction as a priority. It’s genetic propagation by proxy, and it’s called kin selection or genetic altruism in the literature. A member of society can contribute to the survival and propagation of that society in many ways, propagating the group genome, and that doesn’t have to include through personal reproduction. We have all benefited from the contributions made by members of past generations that didn’t reproduce, but their genes live on through their relatives that did reproduce. If all we care about is survival of the species, the best thing for all of us is that trans people get the help and support they need to leave the healthiest and most fulfilling lives possible, so that they can maximally contribute to society. I think that’s an overly reductive attitude, but that’s one way of thinking about it.
    - lljk_kennedy 4y ago
      What of people who were fertile but didn’t have children, through choice, medical reasons, death etc? Surely a person who is fertile but doesn’t have a child for any reason has the same net impact on the growth of population as an unfertile person (trans or not)?
      - yarg 4y ago
edflsafoiewq 4y ago
Cyberpunk != transhumanism
taylorius 4y ago
Is an amputee cyberpunk?
- space_fountain 4y ago
  Yeah if your replacing it with something better for you

Rodeoclash 4y ago

You mention sterility. As a thought experiment, what if the science was perfected that you could change gender perfectly (ala The Culture novels). Would you still feel the same way about it?

fallingfrog 4y ago
Personally I think that would fantastic and fun. Who wouldn’t want to see what life is like on the other side?
- the_omegist 4y ago
  95 to 99% of the population...
  - fallingfrog 4y ago
    But if there was no real downside in terms of social stigma, and it was totally reversible? You don’t think most people would want to switch just out of curiosity?
yarg 4y ago
Grow a hollow in a vat and insert the brain? It'd be prohibitively expensive for most, but why not?
- Rodeoclash 4y ago
  It was free in the culture novels. So, the problem is with the fact we can't do it properly yet? Also, you mentioned environmental factors, is that thinking based on a paper or similar?
  - yarg 4y ago
    https://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=endocrine+disruptors+population&hl=en&oi=scholart https://scholar.google.co.nz/scholar?q=endocrine+disruptors+...

fzeroracer 4y ago

There are a million things more dangerous to the continuation of the human race than a few people willingly becoming sterile to solve other issues with their body. For decades we were shoving lead into gasoline and poisoning an entire generation for the sake of more money, for example. And the 'androgenization of humanity' seems like some nonsense, considering there's zero data or otherwise to back that up.

fastball 4y ago
> a few people willingly becoming sterile to solve other issues with their body. Most of the controversy around trans issues that I've seen would not exist if this was the only dimension to it.
- fzeroracer 4y ago
  Most of the controversy around trans issues is made up nonsense being pushed by a propaganda machine pining to politicize an entire group of people. The same group of people that have turned towards trying to harass gay, lesbian etc individuals because they know they can harness a certain virulent part of their base to harass and antagonize people.
  - fastball 4y ago
    Citation needed.
  - blakebreeder 4y ago
    how convenient. relegating any concern for the modern trans movement to pure malevolence. I guess it makes it easier for you.
    - fzeroracer 4y ago
      By all means, if you think you can come up with any issues or concerns that don't involve the typical political talking points then please, do so.

0dayz 4y ago

I mean you're quite frankly arguing with a straw man, and being vague with the word "healthy", no trans community is advocating that taking opposite hormones is physically healthy. They push for it because that's the only viable option for them to appear as the opposite gender which helps them mentally. Although it is funny you're in a way talking about how men are turning into femboy meme.

wardedVibe 4y ago

Oh, so the reason conservatives are concerned about the birth rate is so they have ammo against gay, trans, and women on the pill. Got it. I was wondering why an issue that won't be a major concern until after 2100 was becoming popular.

fit2rule 4y ago