24 ms·

I assure you, medieval people bathed (2019)

364 points by wchar_t 4y ago

simonsarris 4y ago
ughh I dislike when pop history takes this smarmy tone and is also not particularly accurate. > In fact soap is a motherfucking medieval invention. Yes. It is. The Romans – whomst I don’t see a bunch of basics going around accusing of being filthy – did not, in fact have soap, in contrast. They usually washed using oil. Medieval people? Oh you better believe that they had soap. Wait a minute, what about Aleppo soap? I thought the Romans knew of it and Wikipedia alleges the same in their article: > Although it has been claimed that soap-making was introduced to the West from the Levant after the First Crusades, in fact, soap was known to the Romans in the first century AD and Zosimos of Panopolis described soap and soapmaking in c. 300 AD. Citation: https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_Greek_Fire_and_Gunpowder/fNZBSqd2cToC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA307&printsec=frontcover https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_Greek_Fire... Then the OP author goes on to say: > It was first introduced from the East, like most good stuff was at the time, but it took off rather quickly. This contradicts their claim that soap was a medieval invention! It wasn't a medieval invention. It was adopted technology. That's not a big deal I guess, but if you're going to make a rant about historical accuracies, what else isn't exactly accurate here? It seems the effort is put into the berating imaginary enemies rather than the writing.
- culi 4y ago
  I think it's incredibly silly how tied we are to the idea that something was invented once and then spread. Soap is literally just a fatty acid salt with some phytochemicals that have antimicrobial properties (extremely easy to come by considering most secondary metabolites of plants are specifically produced to keep them from succumbing to bacterial/fungal degradation). Soap has probably been "invented" a million times in thousands of different cultures around the globe Paper was invented in pre-Columbian Americas (look up amate). The earliest evidence of metallurgy (smelting, soldering, annealing, electroplating, sintering, alloying, etc) was by the Moche of the Andes who seem to eventually have went "meh" and got tired of it. Prior to Edison, there was at least 20 other inventors who "invented" incandescent lightbulbs. We like to think of inventions as some strokes of genius that come along in a semi-random way. When in reality inventions are born to meet particular needs and those needs are caused by environmental conditions. Charles Babbage designed the first real computer (see "analytical engine") based on steam power back in 1837 but never built it out. We could've had steampunk computers back in the 19th century but it wasn't until WW1 provided a real need for it that we saw real advancements Soap was likely "invented" and even forgotten over and over again by whoever needed and stopped needing it
  - shakna 4y ago
    > Soap was likely "invented" and even forgotten over and over again by whoever needed and stopped needing it At least with the Sapindus family, and probably a few other plants (like lepisanthes) that produce naturally surfactant properties, nature itself provides something akin to "soap", and has been used in bathing for long enough that we're not even sure when it even began.
    - culi 4y ago
      Yup! Sapindus (aka Soapberries) is actually a genus... in the family Sapindaceae... in the order Sapindales. Same etymology as the phytochemical "saponins" which, besides making soap, has a ton of uses and is easy to identify One very common use of saponin-containing plants is for stupefying fish. Get some fish in a pond, add some saponins, and dinner just floats right up to you. Although saponins are toxic humans have specifically evolved a mechanism to not digest saponins so we can safely eat them (but your dog can't!). Saponins also play a really important role in modern medicine Saponins are quite common across many unrelated plant species. Ginseng, soapworts, horse chestnut, sapodillas, oleander, soap bark tree, and even spinach are some examples Because of their myriad uses (as well as their particular taste) and ways to identify saponin-containing plants it's easy to imagine that, regardless of whatever cosmology some culture used to ascribe these properties, most people could easily identify these plants
  - wizofaus 4y ago
    I can just imagine the reaction of a stone-ager being berated because they hadn't come up with "literally just a fatty acid salt with some phytochemicals that have antimicrobial properties". I suspect you could pick just about any tech invented in the last decade and describe it as "literally just a pick-your-adjective noun with some other random nouns that have something-or-another properties"... Explain again why anyone would stop needing soap? (other than having departed this world...)
    - frostwarrior 4y ago
      Turns out soap is not THAT essential to personal hygiene, if you have running water. The point of bathing is to rub off dead skin cells, excess oil off your skin (note that I said excess). And you can actually do all that without soap. Also note that sweat it's not that stinky when it evaporates quickly (for example, behind loose non-western clothes in a hot environment) Soap helps a lot, of course, but the usual stench of being dirty is more because we use really tight clothes that keep sweat from evaporating
- kixiQu 4y ago
  She mentions Aleppo soap in the piece, and cites the influence of a first century AD physician as being meaningful through the medieval period - so a charitable reader might assume that she's talking about widespread use rather than knowledge of the existence of a thing. In place of a charitable reader, this comment seems to be trying to say that "medieval invention" and "adopted technology" are mutually exclusive. She has a doctorate in medieval history, and I've read her work. It's rather interesting to consider a Google Books link more authoritative.
  - kragen 4y ago
    Yeah, inventing a thing in one time period is mutually exclusive with adopting it from people who invented it in an earlier time period. The author of the book to which the Google Books link linked also had a doctorate, in chemistry; WP describes him as "a key figure in the fields of history of science and chemistry in the beginning half of the 20th century" and "the first president of the Society for History of Alchemy and Early Chemistry". He probably knew more about the history of soap than Dr. Janega, but she might know things about it that hadn't been discovered when he died, and probably knows more about the social context of its medieval use than he did. Is your mention of Google Books intended to suggest that Google Books might be falsifying the text?
- Archelaos 4y ago
  > ... and Wikipedia alleges the same in their article: >> Although it has been claimed that soap-making was introduced to the West from the Levant after the First Crusades, in fact, soap was known to the Romans in the first century AD and Zosimos of Panopolis described soap and soapmaking in c. 300 AD. ... and the article on "Soap" has a lot more to say about the history of soap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap#History > That's not a big deal I guess, but if you're going to make a rant about historical accuracies, what else isn't exactly accurate here? It seems the effort is put into the berating imaginary enemies rather than the writing I would say, it is a big deal. Accuracy is the supreme virtue of a historian. A student who would submit such a poorly researched essay in my 101 course would get it back for factual (and stylistic) improvement.
  - zwirbl 4y ago
    But it's not even an essay, isn't it? I found the style in the historic context refreshing, but I wouldn't want to read a history book written this way
    - Archelaos 4y ago
      > But it's not even an essay, isn't it? I was using the term "essay" because its definition is so vague that almost any short not so academically strict non-fiction text may be called an "essay", at least in a wide sense. (And you can even call a rather austere text that deals with a broader subject an "essay", like Hume's Essays.) But I am open for a better alternative: So if we have a short non-fiction text that wants to make a statement in a more casual style, how would you classify it instead?
      - Klais 4y ago
        The structure of an essay follows certain general guidelines. Regardless of the type of essay, the introduction should be an introductory sentence that introduces the topic and sets the stage for the body. The body of the guidelines for writing an essay https://www.college-paper.org/news/General_Essay_Writing_Guidelines_to_Write_a_Good_College_Paper/ https://www.college-paper.org/news/General_Essay_Writing_Gui... should then develop the main idea by presenting a reasoned argument based on evidence. Each body paragraph should develop the main idea and support the argument, and the conclusion should explain how the topic fits into a broader context.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Which group of people we mean when we talk about Romans? And from what period? I mean sure some country had computers. After all they are used now so they must have been couple centuries back too right?
  - t-3 4y ago
    Indeed. Abaci have been used for millenia.
- meepmorp 4y ago
  > ughh I dislike when pop history takes this smarmy tone and is also not particularly accurate. Smarmy means excessively or fulsomely flattering.
- goto11 4y ago
  The author talks about roman soap in the comments.
phyzome 4y ago
Tangential question: Why do humans place emphasis on bathing, when most other animals don't seem to need to do it? (I think in the US we bathe more than we actually need to, but on the other hand I assume that the strong cross-cultural emphasis indicates that we do actually need to do it to some degree to stay healthy.) Maybe something about our unusual skin, and how we sweat to stay cool?
- xhevahir 4y ago
  Maybe it's an arms race, like with teeth whitening and breast augmentation. I've never looked into this s aspect of grooming and beauty but after googling it I'm not surprised that someone at The Economist has written about this in the past: https://www.economist.com/free-exchange/2008/12/23/breaking-the-botox-equilibrium https://www.economist.com/free-exchange/2008/12/23/breaking-... Edit: sorry, paywalled article
- sdwr 4y ago
  A lot of animals bathe/groom. Birds, other primates, cats. Tons of mammals swim as well. Deer, bears, etc (what other animals are there??) I've noticed that the more I exercise, the cleaner + healthier my skin is. Showers only get me partly there - I need to sweat through a full rinse cycle to get all the funk out.
  - culi 4y ago
    The only reason our sweat even stinks is because of the way it's metabolized by our skin's microbiome. It turns out if you have AOB (ammonia oxidizing bacteria) they can oxidize our sweat and prevent us from stinking AOBs are found in soils pretty much everywhere. But they're extremely sensitive and can easily be washed away. In contrast, the particular microbes that have closely evolved alongside us to adapt to our skin microbiome often live several layers deep in our skin. When we take a hot shower or soap up we kill them on the surface but, luckily for our skin's health, they can be replenished. However, the AOBs don't have this deep relationship with us because they are not anaerobic. Instead it's likely that we've evolved to expect a constant influx of soil-based bacteria on our skin Indeed if you look at any other hairless mammals, one of their favorite things is mud baths. Elephant, pigs, rhinos, etc. We're still learning the full extent of how our skin microbiome plays into our health, but the recent research on the gut-brain-skin axis shows it's likely deeply integrated into our evolutionary past
kumarvvr 4y ago
Its funny that western history distorts the history of the rest of the world. I hear western kids saying no one used to bathe in the ancient times. As an Indian, it was practically mandatory for each and every individual to take a bath at-least two times a day. Additionally the following customs were very prevalent till recent times. 1. Washing legs after coming home from outside. 2. Washing hands, face and legs before sitting to eat food. 3. Washing whole body after sex. 4. Washing legs before entering others homes. 5. Leaving footwear outside the *gate* of any home before entering it. 6. A full bath in a river / lake / house tank *before* sunrise and once *before* sunset. Also, body was supposed to be massaged with oil of sesame seeds (once a week), and greengram flour was rubbed on every part of the body. After sitting in the sun like this for a few minutes, the flour was scrubbed off by hand, and then a hot water bath taken. For shampoo, two traditional herbs are recommended. Kunkudukai and shikakai. Both are used as it is without any processing. Kunkudukai would be crushed and mixed with water to form a liquid and then applied on head. Amazingly, it would form a lather when rubbed on the head. I remember doing this type of head bath every sunday, until about 2005. Any shampoo was forbidden in our home. The items were dead cheap too. [Edit] Kinkudukai is also called soapnut. https://www.stylecraze.com/articles/benefits-of-soapnuts-for-skin-hair-and-health/ https://www.stylecraze.com/articles/benefits-of-soapnuts-for... The above site tends to exaggerate the benifits a bit, but it is believed that kunkudukai inhibhits dandruff and is anti-fungal and anti-bacterial. By personal experience, it tastes absolutely vomit inducing bitter and will burn your eyes to high hell if as much as a diluted drop enters it. Its a natural, safe and environmentally friendly way of taking a head bath.
- b112 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - aetherson 4y ago
    While the large majority of people were peasants, the ratio obviously wasn't 99,999:1.
  - swatcoder 4y ago
    I don’t think you’re aware of how much any capable person can procure for themselves and their peers, throughout almost all of global history. Peasants may not maintain secure access to everything, but historically it doesn’t take wealth to have a sturdy shelter, water, warmth, and food, and even some luxuries. It’s a little different in modern times, but those basics were mostly available to everyone just through labor and time, of which peasants have quite a lot.
eevilspock 4y ago
History is written by the upper class, especially in past times when only the upper caste could read or write. Even if what the author says is true about medieval upper caste people (I don't doubt it), I have trouble believing that peasants could afford the cost and time required of regular bathing. Water didn't come easily unless you happened to live next to a river or have a well next to your house. We've all seen women in third world countries carrying water for cooking and drinking on their heads, often long distances. And we haven't even gotten to the costs of the other things she mentions. Poor people rarely ate meat because they couldn't afford it; where are they going to get animal fat to make soap? The author doesn't provide any evidence, just makes claims using words to imply you're stupid if you doubt her. All the "photographic" evidence she provides all pretty clearly DO NOT depict poor people.
- andrew_ 4y ago
  I enjoyed the color in the language, it was entertaining. But it definitely wasn't a scholarly article haha.
- kumarvvr 4y ago
  > We've all seen women in third world countries carrying water for cooking and drinking on their heads, often long distances This aspect of 3rd world countries is commented upon again and again. But, what I find most amusing is that in modern times, water comes to your home, but you go to the gym to slog it out for an hour. Just waster your energy that you over ate the day before. Its true that women used to carry water over a few kilometers every day. But in most cases, water sources were available nearby (Most settlements happened in the vicinity of water sources, and there are many historical references that show whole villages up and leaving in search of water sources if their current source seems depleted) Across the board, obesity is high, BP problems are high, Diabetes problems are high, people have lesser stamina and strength and a whole host of health problems, that were not even an issue a few decades ago are now mainstream. In ancient times, we depended on nature and it necessitated regular work for living a life. Getting water from local well or pond, cooling for long hours, household chores like washing clothes, etc took a long time. People traveled a lot by foot, etc. Life was hard, but life was healthy too. To account for accidents, health issues in old age, etc, joint families were the norm, where the family and the society supported a disabled person or an incapacitated person to the extent possible. Modern living in convenient, but not healthy. Is luxurious, but not cheap. Is plentiful, but not sustainable.
andrew_ 4y ago
Had me right up until the last paragraph. One does not have to be a colonialist or carry bias to have misconceptions about the midevil period. Ignorance is a fine reason. I myself am a huge fan of history but mostly ignorant about that time period. It's just never been my jam. I'll admit I'd probably think the "bring out your dead" and "oh Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here" sketches in Monty Python's Holy Grail was somewhat accurate before reading the article.
- Osmose 4y ago
  The article doesn't claim that the misconception makes you colonialist, it says that this kind of ignorance ultimately _perpetuates_ a colonialist interpretation of history, which is why she feels strongly about what may seem like a minor issue to others. It's not about blaming you in particular, it's about why this was important enough to her to write about.
- southerntofu 4y ago
  > One does not have to be a colonialist or carry bias to have misconceptions about the midevil period. No obligation indeed, but there is a historical correlation, at least where i come from (France). Myths about the medieval era as times of barbarism and suffering have emerged with the "renaissance" (and its witch hunts which did not take place during the medieval era) then the "enlightenment" (Lumières) of the 18th century. That's entirely correlated with the emergence of the "civilizing mission" of republican colonialism [0], whereas king/church-driven colonization before that was based on the idea that colonized peoples were not human and did not have a soul, as was ruled during the Valladolid trials of the 16th century [1]. In Western Europe, to my knowledge, it took until the late 19th/early 20th socialist/anarchist thinkers (Friedrich Engels, Pierre Clastres) to recognize that there were different cultures and that social/societal progress was not universal and linear. These ideas are still not really accepted across society as the entire field of economics is based on the idea of linear material progress and that those poor "backwards"/"underdeveloped" peoples need help from us "enlightened" westerners (see also David Graeber for a critique of such productivity metrics [2]). [0] For example, a famous french politician who's remember in the nationalist propaganda as the father of public schools (Jules Ferry), would say that it's "the role of more civilized peoples to educate the lesser peoples". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valladolid_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valladolid_debate [2] Managerial Feudalism and the revolt of the caring classes
cm2012 4y ago
I feel very grateful for reddit.com/r/askhistorians. I feel like they are the only source I can trust on figuring out the best truth we know about history.
- _gabe_ 4y ago
  > I feel like they are the only source I can trust on figuring out the best truth we know about history. I hope this isn't a widespread belief. If it is, then this concerns me.
  - prox 4y ago
    The answers are usually quite rigorous. The best answers usually give a good state of affairs in academia as well. All of the answers are sourced. In the fields where I know something about, it’s usually correct/as I know it to be.
  - nonima 4y ago
nevershower 4y ago
I always had sensitive skin. I stopped using products in my hair, then I stopped showering my head, then I stopped showering altogether. Now I shower about once a month, washing only parts between the legs daily. I am the most smelly after I shower, that sour sweaty smell. Incidentally I read that this is some kind of fad in Hollywood.
- rendall 4y ago
  > then I stopped showering altogether After having had over the course of my life a small number of friends who stopped bathing for one reason or another, and my successfully talking them back into the habit, I will tell you what I told them: With respect, I guarantee you, you stink to the people around you, and you cannot smell it yourself. Find a soap that does not irritate your skin and use it. Also, launder your clothes. We humans sweat proteins, which when they decay, smell bad. If we sweat into our clothes, the proteins remain there and smell bad. The people around you unconsciously interpret this as illness, and will instinctively avoid you. My friends who stopped cleaning (and were not ill in some way) almost universally were questioning societal standards after childhoods with controlling parents, as hippies or otherwise back-to-nature transcendentalists. Not sure if that's you, but if so, it checks.
  - nevershower 4y ago
    Thanks for the reality check.
astrobe_ 4y ago
Someone mentioned in the comments of TFA, but soap-making was an industry in a southern french town since ancient times. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille_soap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille_soap
- othello 4y ago
  Absolutely! Also “town” seems rather uncharitable as Marseille has been a city without interruption for the past 2600 years since it’s founding as Massalia by Greek colonists - making it almost as old as Rome. It’s home to 1.8 million today, and a beautiful place to visit! [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille
- tgv 4y ago
  > The first documented soapmaker was recorded there in about 1370. That's not ancient times. That's practically Renaissance.
  - hypertele-Xii 4y ago
    Wikipedia says [0] it's late middle ages, and only mentions the beginning of Italian reneissance. Though the word "ancient" has more specific meaning in history than is being used here, probably, referring to pre- middle ages (classical antiquity). It's not ancient times, but also not quite reneissance yet. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_century
raarts 4y ago
- tgv 4y ago
  > The writer presents little numbers on prevalence. IMO, the writer doesn't present any argument at all. All she does is repeat that "clearly, fucking clearly medieval people bathed and were clean and into it" in a number of linguistic variations. The evidence presented consists of a list of rules from a public bath and some skincare tips from Hildegard von Bingen. How that implies "[M]edieval people bathed regularly. I am very serious. It is true." is beyond me. Unless it's a joke?
- simion314 4y ago
  >Where are all the bath tubs found in excavations? At least here in Easter Europe we were still using wood "bath tubes" until recent times. Wood stuff does not preserve. Also there was no room for "bath", this bath-tubes are portable, so you get the out when you need them then store them away. Sorry for the bad quality of img, this are traditional fromRomania https://adroa.top/ant/?header=Covat%C4%83+de+lemn+foarte+veche https://adroa.top/ant/?header=Covat%C4%83+de+lemn+foarte+vec.... https://frankfurt.apollo.olxcdn.com/v1/files/13e2dt7g3zx82-RO/image;s=644x461 https://frankfurt.apollo.olxcdn.com/v1/files/13e2dt7g3zx82-R...
  - raarts 4y ago
    Wood stuff does not preserve? Other furniture does. And even then, they need iron bands to hold them together. Also, rain barrels.
    - simion314 4y ago
      This wood tubes do not use metal or nails, are made from just one piece of wood. When I was a child we had a big ree, one day my grandffather brought a family of wood workers , they cut the tree and madfe a ton of wood stuff from it, including big and small "tubes" , the small ones are used for backing or as containers, big and small spoons, other wood stuff I don't remember. But it was all curved, no nails or glue. This is possible because this tree is very soft and easy to work with, so you will not find 2000 years old wood tools in an ancient city or village ruins but you will find them in a few hundred years old homes in museums. I was attempting to show that you should not demand archaeologists to find you bathrooms so you are convinced people were bathing. Peasant homes do not have a room dedicated for bath, and the bath tubes are wooden tools not stone or metal so you could find them if you know how to google but I can't tell you the english name for this.
kgeist 4y ago
I thought it varied by country, class, etc. I remember reading that Anna of Kiev (if I'm not mistaken), after visiting France, had a culture shock that French aristocracy smelled badly, apparently due to inadequate bathing.
- webmobdev 4y ago
  One of the kings believed water spread diseases, and asked everyone in his court to avoid bathing - The Smelly History of French Royals at the Palace of Versailles - https://historyofyesterday.com/the-smelly-history-of-french-royals-at-the-palace-of-versailles-e55238fc1072 https://historyofyesterday.com/the-smelly-history-of-french-... ... Marie Antoinette hit by ‘flying human poo’ at Palace of Versailles - https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1562426/marie-antoinette-human-poo-palace-of-versailles-channel-5-history-kate-williams-spt https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1562426/marie-antoinett...
verisimi 4y ago
History is only an expedient story, not that much to do with reality. We really can't know how people lived a 1000 years ago, despite what might appear to be mountains of evidence. This evidence is actually the creation of historians in the past century... and when you look at their sources for yourself, you will see that they are open to interpretation despite being presented as fact. For the ruling structure today, saying that the peasants of yesteryear were dirty, and even the nobility, supports the idea that we are progressing and have never had it so good. As if better tech means we have better lives. To me, it is a perfectly plausible idea that how people lived in the 'medieval' times was far more equitable, natural and healthy than today. But that story doesn't 'sell' - who would want the tech dystopia we are coding ourselves into, if a pastoral idyll were held up to it? History is what is expedient for the present. It is the story the present governance structure would like you to believe.
- prox 4y ago
  While that is true for writing (who wrote this? Why? How critical is the author?) There is a ton we do know. From literature/art to archeological excavations. Ofcourse, the further you go back, you get more and more filters that make things fuzzy. Lots of things were made of wood for instance, it doesn’t survive on the whole. Medieval lives in the west were very prone to disturbing forces : invasions, successions of lords/kings, religious clashes, poverty, draughts and deceases. My own ancestors in the 17th/early 18th century died from 6 different deceases and floods and harsh winters. There were “poor hunters” , hunters who kept out the poor from the village. Of 14 children, only one ancestor survived in that time of whom I descent. Another part of the family in another section of the country lived reasonably well and in peace at least. They were able to marry into better living conditions. Life in medieval times could be pastoral, but it could just as well be a wretched existence. It depends where you look and in what time.
  - verisimi 4y ago
    > There is a ton we do know. From literature/art to archeological excavations. What do you think 'we' know? Is 'knowing' even a group activity? It is not of course, we can only know what we personally verify. Now you can say that you are familiar with what an archeologist has written about what he found, but it is another thing to look at the sources for yourself and see if you concur with the conclusions. I'd be interested to hear more on how you know so much about your family in the 17th and 18th centuries, especially if they were poor. If you have good information and sources that would definitely be unusual, at least as far as what I have found. Most people have hardly any records of their family history.
pipeline_peak 4y ago
> In fact soap is a motherfucking medieval invention Soap goes as far back as Babylon, you Anglophilic weeaboo.
kgeist 4y ago
The Old Norse word for Saturday, laugardagr, literally means "washing day". This custom still survives here in countryside Eastern Europe where many people routinely go to sauna (banya) every Saturday (or Sunday like my family). Before the 20th century, a lot of Eastern Europe (especially Russia) still lived like they lived in the middle ages: 95% of the country were serfs on feudal property living in traditional wooden houses with no modern benefits of civilization, and the bathing culture was pervasive: there were saunas (banyas) everywhere, and most villages were close to a river so water access was not a problem. Saunas were also a place where people gave birth. I find it hard to believe that Russian peasants were living the same lifestyle for centuries and only recently decided to start bathing. My family comes from Old Believers, a religous group which rejected church reforms of the 1600's and went into hiding in taiga, they preserved pretty ancient customs and their bathing culture was pretty intricate: for example, there always must be a separate towel/bucket of water for head, body, feet - this wouldn't have developed without a rich bathing culture before. Those villagers who could not afford their own sauna bathed in... ovens (inside the house). It's one of the older customs still preserved in some places. The traditional oven was pretty large and a whole person could fit in it. My mother was bathed like that when she was a child in their Old Believer village. However, I don't know if this was specific to Eastern/Northern Europe or common in Western Europe, too. I remember reading that due to overpopulation and deforestation it was harder for West Europeans to have frequent bathing every week. But here, population wasn't dense and forests were abundant.
- mongol 4y ago
  Yes and this is to this day the Swedish word for Saturday: lördag, from "lögardagen". Same etymology as laugardagr.
  - kzrdude 4y ago
    Well, laugardagr is the etymology, isn't it? The modern shapes of this weekday name are still used in the scandinavian languages, and Icelandic, Finnish and Estonian.
    - 4y ago
walrus01 4y ago
If you read translations of early medieval Arabic language travelers that visited Europe, they were almost all universally appalled by the state of hygiene and sewage/waste in major cities in general. Not saying people didn't bathe at all but it clearly didn't meet societally acceptable standards of an educated person from Cairo or Baghdad.
- rendall 4y ago
  > medieval Arabic language travelers that visited Europe There was only one IIRC, Ahmad ibn Fadlan, who wrote disparagingly only of the habits of the Vikings of the upper Volga river.
- drops 4y ago
  Could you recommend some of the mentioned translations?
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  Kath and Gurganj were not exactly up to their standards either.
gala8y 4y ago
It's interesting to note that, when water is really scarce, people can take care of themselves without water. Himba people, living nomad life on savannas of Namibia and Angola, practically do not use water for everyday hygiene. Shaving heads (men), making dreads with mud (women), oiling body with liquid butter with ochre pigment from soil. Additionally, women use herbs incense as anti-microbial and fragrance. Added: As culi points out in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364340 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364340) "(...) ammonia oxidizing bacteria can oxidize our sweat and prevent us from stinking. AOBs are found in soils pretty much everywhere."
punnerud 4y ago
Don’t remove my scroll bar
Max-q 4y ago
Nice article that would have been even better without all the “ass” and “fucking”.
- posed 4y ago
  Exactly. I had to stop reading once it got out of hand.
- birthday 4y ago
  What! No I loved it. Gave me a good laugh once or twice. Read it with a smile.
lemursage 4y ago
I found Katherine’s Ashenburg „Dirt on clean” book a nice read on how perception hygiene evolved over ages. It definitely reads as popscience, but for uninitiated ignorants like myself it was pretty sufficient. I see the author cites one of her other books in [6] as well.
ncmncm 4y ago
As it was explained to me, the soap people made themselves in the old days was so much better than today's, a bath could last you weeks, or even months. This modern stuff you can buy barely lasts a day.
- Boltgolt 4y ago
  Maybe, but i don't think the best soap the world has ever seen will keep me from smelling like sweat after a few hot days
  - ncmncm 4y ago
    Yeah, like I said, modern soap. You can't buy the good stuff at all.
    - hypertele-Xii 4y ago
      Where do you shop that doesn't sell plain old soap bars? Need me to mail some for you?
      - ncmncm 4y ago
        Obviously, plain old soap bars will not suffice to make a bath last for weeks or months. As I said pretty clearly, and you must have read, you cannot buy the good stuff.
        happyopossum 4y ago
        You’re gonna need a lot more evidence than “it was explained to me”… It’s trivially easy to find ancient soap recipes and revert them at hope. Or one can buy Aleppo soap, or Castilian soap from specialty markets. It’s not like there’s some lost secret, or extinct ingredients - it’s soap, and it’s been a pretty simple thing to make for thousands of years.
        ncmncm 4y ago
macrolime 4y ago
Clicking through here led me down a medieval rabbit hole and I reading about medieval math education, it seems music was an integral part of mathematics at the time with arithmetic (numbers as abstract concepts), geometry (numbers in space), music (numbers in time) and astronomy (numbers in space and time). These days using music or sound as an aid in mathematics is very uncommon. These days we only use graphs, diagrams, geometrical figures and. We have stopped using one of our senses for math. When did this happen? I imagine sound could be useful for alternative ways of experiencing mathematical object as not just geometry, but also as ways to explore concepts in higher dimensions by using audio for some dimensions. In complex analysis, colors are used to visualize four dimensions but audio remains very niche. A bunch of numbers in a table is often difficult to make sense of by looking at the numbers but can give many intuitive insights when visualized. I imagine there are probably things that are easier to make sense of if your hear it than visualize it. Maybe music should be put back in math education.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
t-3 4y ago
Not sure how true it is, but my HS European history teacher blamed the Catholic Church and nobility for misinformation regarding the so-called Dark Ages. Apparently, they weren't too happy about widespread atheism or peasants burning the tax and accounting records.
kurupt213 4y ago
The writing is obnoxious
- DrewADesign 4y ago
  Kinda cringeworthy, TBH. Great info though and her later entries seem much better.
andsoitis 4y ago
In fact, maybe they bathed TOO much: https://going-medieval.com/2019/08/02/i-assure-you-medieval-people-bathed/ https://going-medieval.com/2019/08/02/i-assure-you-medieval-... But they also gave us soap, there's that.
peoplefromibiza 4y ago
bathing and hygiene were not in direct correlation in ancient history, the correlation between unwashed hands, germs and diseases was long to be discovered. Bathing was mostly a ritualistic activity or a social activity (see Roman thermal baths) We know Romans, Egyptians and very possibly other cultures shaved themselves almost completely both as a social gathering activity (barbershops were very popular places for gossips and news) and to prevent lices. So yeah they bathed, some ancient cultures did that a lot, they might have been clean people, doesn't mean their hygiene was generally good nor better than the civilizations before them. They still walked around in cities or villages with no sewage systems where people and animals lived together. It's no mistery and no wonder that medieval times were plagued by all kinds of diseases and epidemics.
deepzn 4y ago
That's why a lot of medieval RPG's have soaps in them. Even Elden Ring has it lol.
tlogan 4y ago
Here are some contra points: - Aztecs were burning incense around the conquistadors to hide their unpleasant body odor (documented) - The Christian Church actually said bathing naked was forbidden - the pope instructed all public bath to be closed - The monks order clearly said to bath only once a year - general decline of the cities caused that a lot of public baths to be closed. Rome had none in medieval time. - Muslim and Byzantine records mentioned how dirty westener were My understanding was that bathing was strongly discouraged by church and in places where church did not have a lot on influence or they become Christian latter like Skandinavia bathing was still considered important.
- webmobdev 4y ago
  > The Christian Church actually said bathing naked was forbidden ... the pope instructed all public bath to be closed ... The monks order clearly said to bath only once a year ... My understanding was that bathing was strongly discouraged by church ... The article does highlight and bring some context to this: ... Well the idea that medieval people didn’t bathe is a persistent myth ... Why is that? Well part of it is a modern misunderstanding of the idea of bathing. It’s true that we have medieval sources which warn against “excessive” bathing. But here’s the thing, that wasn’t really about being clean, it was about hanging out naked in bathhouses with the opposite sex. They didn’t want you to not be clean, they wanted you to not be going down the bath house and getting your fuck on. ... And yeah, some holy people didn’t bathe, notably saints who would forego bathing themselves but bathe sick or poor people ... But if you bring that up you are missing the point. Medieval people thought that bathing and being clean was really nice, so giving it up and living with your stank was a sign that you had given up on the corporeal world and only thought of heaven. It was holy because it was uncomfortable, like wearing a hair shirt, or eating vegan, and hitting your chest with rocks and sitting in the desert trying not to wank. You know, standard saint stuff. It is mentioned because it is uncommon and uncomfortable ... These things, while they make sense in context are often taken by people who have never learned a damn thing about the middle ages and read in the worst possible light. > Muslim and Byzantine records mentioned how dirty westener were That may have been probably true from the perspective of muslims because in Islam personal hygiene is part of the religious obligations of muslims. Religious muslims are supposed to pray 3/5 times a day, but before they do so they are supposed to clean themselves as per a prescribed ritual called wudu ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudu ). So a religious muslim, even in the medieval times, would be cleaning himself atleast 3/5 times a day (and that's apart from regular bathing). Thus, in comparison to that, some non-muslims could have been perceived as "dirty". It would have been even more so for them if they also learnt of christian saints and / or leaders promoting not bathing as a path to salvation, when their religion tells the exact opposite.
m33k44 4y ago
There is a Hindu mythological story in India about how the elephant god ganpati/gajanan/ganesh(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha) got his elephant head while his body is of a human. The story goes something like this, Shiva/Shankar/Mahesh(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva) is a god of destruction in Hinduism. When he was out in the forest, his wife Parvati was alone and had to go for a bath. But she was concerned what if some stranger gets into the house while she was bathing. So to prevent anyone getting into the house she removes the layer of sandalwood and turmeric paste she had applied to her body and makes an idol of a boy and puts life into him. As the boy comes to life she instructs him to guard the house and not let anyone enter while his mother(Parvati) is having a bath. Her husband returns after a while. Parvati is still in the bath. And as he tries to enter the house, the boy prevents him from doing so saying that his mother has instructed him not to let anyone inside the house. Shiva, known for his temper, gets angry and throws his weapon, trishul(trident), at the boy which chops off his head and it falls somewhere in the forest. Parvati, when she returns from her bath sees the headless body of her son and gets angry at Shiva and demands that he bring the boy back to life. But there is a problem, the head is missing. So Shiva goes in search of the head into the forest but he is unable to find it. So when he sees an elephant in the forest, he chops off the head of the animal and attaches it to the boys body and puts life back into it. That is how people of HN, the Hindu god Ganpati got his elephant head :) Now, did I mention this is a mythological story? So please be kind to this gentle soul. I only narrated this story because it includes the concept of bathing :D There are lot of such stories in Indian mythology where there is mention of bathing.
- fithisux 4y ago
  Beautiful
dqpb 4y ago
> (and were largely owned by the Bishop of Winchester (as you do). I read to the end. He never closed his parentheses.
dqpb 4y ago
You don’t need a whole tub to bathe. A person can take a reasonable “shower” with a bucket of water and a cup. It’s much easier to heat one bucket of water than to fill a whole tub. I would be surprised if peasants didn’t primarily take bucket baths.
wackget 4y ago
The content of the article was interesting but the writing style was stupid and infantile. You couldn't share this article with a colleague, a parent, or anyone who might not understand the "quirky" writing style filled with references to pop culture memes and expletives. TL;DR immaturely written for no reason.
- humanistbot 4y ago
  The site is called "Going Medieval: Medieval History, Pop Culture, Swearing." I'm pretty sure it is not intended to be an academic article.
elzbardico 4y ago
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the medieval ages, starting with the tired and utterly wrong “dark ages”
ninefathom 4y ago
This article is peppered with factual errors. While none of them detract from the core idea, they do lead one to question Dr. Janega's scholarship. Here's a modest sampling: - Soap is given as a medieval invention, but this is stretching to the extreme both the idea of "inventing soap" and the idea of "medieval." In reality it was widely made and used at least as a hair wash by the waning days of the Western Roman empire. - The ingredients list for soap contains a number of equivalent or derived ingredients listed as though totally separate, as if the author weren't aware of the relationships and went copy-pasta crazy from mixed sources. - Aleppo soap is described as if made exclusively from laurel oil (rather than the correct mixture of laurel and olive oils). - The photo shown of a light brown bar of soap with a caption seeming to suggest that it's Castille soap is in all likelihood actually Aleppo soap (cf. the text of the Arabic seal, which is rather humorously shown upside-down). - The description of a deodorant made using "salvia and sage" is rather perplexing, as salvia is the Latin word for sage... and the name of the modern genus of plants containing common sage. A reference to salvia in the colloquial modern sense of Salvia divinorum seems unlikely in the extreme. All told, while this is an interesting read, and does contain some useful information, from a scholarly perspective it seems to be, at best, slipshod.
birthday 4y ago
Now I want to go inside a sauna, put some clay on my body. Detox, clean, mmmm and moisturize when done. Then get into freshly washed Egyptian cotton sheets to have a good night's sleep for 8 hours.

364 points by wchar_t 4y ago

ughh I dislike when pop history takes this smarmy tone and is also not particularly accurate. > In fact soap is a motherfucking medieval invention. Yes. It is. The Romans – whomst I don’t see a bunch of basics going around accusing of being filthy – did not, in fact have soap, in contrast. They usually washed using oil. Medieval people? Oh you better believe that they had soap. Wait a minute, what about Aleppo soap? I thought the Romans knew of it and Wikipedia alleges the same in their article: > Although it has been claimed that soap-making was introduced to the West from the Levant after the First Crusades, in fact, soap was known to the Romans in the first century AD and Zosimos of Panopolis described soap and soapmaking in c. 300 AD. Citation: https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_Greek_Fire_and_Gunpowder/fNZBSqd2cToC?hl=en&gbpv=1&pg=PA307&printsec=frontcover https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_History_of_Greek_Fire... Then the OP author goes on to say: > It was first introduced from the East, like most good stuff was at the time, but it took off rather quickly. This contradicts their claim that soap was a medieval invention! It wasn't a medieval invention. It was adopted technology. That's not a big deal I guess, but if you're going to make a rant about historical accuracies, what else isn't exactly accurate here? It seems the effort is put into the berating imaginary enemies rather than the writing.

culi 4y ago
I think it's incredibly silly how tied we are to the idea that something was invented once and then spread. Soap is literally just a fatty acid salt with some phytochemicals that have antimicrobial properties (extremely easy to come by considering most secondary metabolites of plants are specifically produced to keep them from succumbing to bacterial/fungal degradation). Soap has probably been "invented" a million times in thousands of different cultures around the globe Paper was invented in pre-Columbian Americas (look up amate). The earliest evidence of metallurgy (smelting, soldering, annealing, electroplating, sintering, alloying, etc) was by the Moche of the Andes who seem to eventually have went "meh" and got tired of it. Prior to Edison, there was at least 20 other inventors who "invented" incandescent lightbulbs. We like to think of inventions as some strokes of genius that come along in a semi-random way. When in reality inventions are born to meet particular needs and those needs are caused by environmental conditions. Charles Babbage designed the first real computer (see "analytical engine") based on steam power back in 1837 but never built it out. We could've had steampunk computers back in the 19th century but it wasn't until WW1 provided a real need for it that we saw real advancements Soap was likely "invented" and even forgotten over and over again by whoever needed and stopped needing it
- shakna 4y ago
  > Soap was likely "invented" and even forgotten over and over again by whoever needed and stopped needing it At least with the Sapindus family, and probably a few other plants (like lepisanthes) that produce naturally surfactant properties, nature itself provides something akin to "soap", and has been used in bathing for long enough that we're not even sure when it even began.
  - culi 4y ago
    Yup! Sapindus (aka Soapberries) is actually a genus... in the family Sapindaceae... in the order Sapindales. Same etymology as the phytochemical "saponins" which, besides making soap, has a ton of uses and is easy to identify One very common use of saponin-containing plants is for stupefying fish. Get some fish in a pond, add some saponins, and dinner just floats right up to you. Although saponins are toxic humans have specifically evolved a mechanism to not digest saponins so we can safely eat them (but your dog can't!). Saponins also play a really important role in modern medicine Saponins are quite common across many unrelated plant species. Ginseng, soapworts, horse chestnut, sapodillas, oleander, soap bark tree, and even spinach are some examples Because of their myriad uses (as well as their particular taste) and ways to identify saponin-containing plants it's easy to imagine that, regardless of whatever cosmology some culture used to ascribe these properties, most people could easily identify these plants
- wizofaus 4y ago
  I can just imagine the reaction of a stone-ager being berated because they hadn't come up with "literally just a fatty acid salt with some phytochemicals that have antimicrobial properties". I suspect you could pick just about any tech invented in the last decade and describe it as "literally just a pick-your-adjective noun with some other random nouns that have something-or-another properties"... Explain again why anyone would stop needing soap? (other than having departed this world...)
  - frostwarrior 4y ago
    Turns out soap is not THAT essential to personal hygiene, if you have running water. The point of bathing is to rub off dead skin cells, excess oil off your skin (note that I said excess). And you can actually do all that without soap. Also note that sweat it's not that stinky when it evaporates quickly (for example, behind loose non-western clothes in a hot environment) Soap helps a lot, of course, but the usual stench of being dirty is more because we use really tight clothes that keep sweat from evaporating
kixiQu 4y ago
She mentions Aleppo soap in the piece, and cites the influence of a first century AD physician as being meaningful through the medieval period - so a charitable reader might assume that she's talking about widespread use rather than knowledge of the existence of a thing. In place of a charitable reader, this comment seems to be trying to say that "medieval invention" and "adopted technology" are mutually exclusive. She has a doctorate in medieval history, and I've read her work. It's rather interesting to consider a Google Books link more authoritative.
- kragen 4y ago
  Yeah, inventing a thing in one time period is mutually exclusive with adopting it from people who invented it in an earlier time period. The author of the book to which the Google Books link linked also had a doctorate, in chemistry; WP describes him as "a key figure in the fields of history of science and chemistry in the beginning half of the 20th century" and "the first president of the Society for History of Alchemy and Early Chemistry". He probably knew more about the history of soap than Dr. Janega, but she might know things about it that hadn't been discovered when he died, and probably knows more about the social context of its medieval use than he did. Is your mention of Google Books intended to suggest that Google Books might be falsifying the text?
Archelaos 4y ago
> ... and Wikipedia alleges the same in their article: >> Although it has been claimed that soap-making was introduced to the West from the Levant after the First Crusades, in fact, soap was known to the Romans in the first century AD and Zosimos of Panopolis described soap and soapmaking in c. 300 AD. ... and the article on "Soap" has a lot more to say about the history of soap: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap#History > That's not a big deal I guess, but if you're going to make a rant about historical accuracies, what else isn't exactly accurate here? It seems the effort is put into the berating imaginary enemies rather than the writing I would say, it is a big deal. Accuracy is the supreme virtue of a historian. A student who would submit such a poorly researched essay in my 101 course would get it back for factual (and stylistic) improvement.
- zwirbl 4y ago
  But it's not even an essay, isn't it? I found the style in the historic context refreshing, but I wouldn't want to read a history book written this way
  - Archelaos 4y ago
    > But it's not even an essay, isn't it? I was using the term "essay" because its definition is so vague that almost any short not so academically strict non-fiction text may be called an "essay", at least in a wide sense. (And you can even call a rather austere text that deals with a broader subject an "essay", like Hume's Essays.) But I am open for a better alternative: So if we have a short non-fiction text that wants to make a statement in a more casual style, how would you classify it instead?
    - Klais 4y ago
      The structure of an essay follows certain general guidelines. Regardless of the type of essay, the introduction should be an introductory sentence that introduces the topic and sets the stage for the body. The body of the guidelines for writing an essay https://www.college-paper.org/news/General_Essay_Writing_Guidelines_to_Write_a_Good_College_Paper/ https://www.college-paper.org/news/General_Essay_Writing_Gui... should then develop the main idea by presenting a reasoned argument based on evidence. Each body paragraph should develop the main idea and support the argument, and the conclusion should explain how the topic fits into a broader context.
Ekaros 4y ago
Which group of people we mean when we talk about Romans? And from what period? I mean sure some country had computers. After all they are used now so they must have been couple centuries back too right?
- t-3 4y ago
  Indeed. Abaci have been used for millenia.
meepmorp 4y ago
> ughh I dislike when pop history takes this smarmy tone and is also not particularly accurate. Smarmy means excessively or fulsomely flattering.
goto11 4y ago
The author talks about roman soap in the comments.

phyzome 4y ago

Tangential question: Why do humans place emphasis on bathing, when most other animals don't seem to need to do it? (I think in the US we bathe more than we actually need to, but on the other hand I assume that the strong cross-cultural emphasis indicates that we do actually need to do it to some degree to stay healthy.) Maybe something about our unusual skin, and how we sweat to stay cool?

xhevahir 4y ago
Maybe it's an arms race, like with teeth whitening and breast augmentation. I've never looked into this s aspect of grooming and beauty but after googling it I'm not surprised that someone at The Economist has written about this in the past: https://www.economist.com/free-exchange/2008/12/23/breaking-the-botox-equilibrium https://www.economist.com/free-exchange/2008/12/23/breaking-... Edit: sorry, paywalled article
sdwr 4y ago
A lot of animals bathe/groom. Birds, other primates, cats. Tons of mammals swim as well. Deer, bears, etc (what other animals are there??) I've noticed that the more I exercise, the cleaner + healthier my skin is. Showers only get me partly there - I need to sweat through a full rinse cycle to get all the funk out.
- culi 4y ago
  The only reason our sweat even stinks is because of the way it's metabolized by our skin's microbiome. It turns out if you have AOB (ammonia oxidizing bacteria) they can oxidize our sweat and prevent us from stinking AOBs are found in soils pretty much everywhere. But they're extremely sensitive and can easily be washed away. In contrast, the particular microbes that have closely evolved alongside us to adapt to our skin microbiome often live several layers deep in our skin. When we take a hot shower or soap up we kill them on the surface but, luckily for our skin's health, they can be replenished. However, the AOBs don't have this deep relationship with us because they are not anaerobic. Instead it's likely that we've evolved to expect a constant influx of soil-based bacteria on our skin Indeed if you look at any other hairless mammals, one of their favorite things is mud baths. Elephant, pigs, rhinos, etc. We're still learning the full extent of how our skin microbiome plays into our health, but the recent research on the gut-brain-skin axis shows it's likely deeply integrated into our evolutionary past

kumarvvr 4y ago

Its funny that western history distorts the history of the rest of the world. I hear western kids saying no one used to bathe in the ancient times. As an Indian, it was practically mandatory for each and every individual to take a bath at-least two times a day. Additionally the following customs were very prevalent till recent times. 1. Washing legs after coming home from outside. 2. Washing hands, face and legs before sitting to eat food. 3. Washing whole body after sex. 4. Washing legs before entering others homes. 5. Leaving footwear outside the *gate* of any home before entering it. 6. A full bath in a river / lake / house tank *before* sunrise and once *before* sunset. Also, body was supposed to be massaged with oil of sesame seeds (once a week), and greengram flour was rubbed on every part of the body. After sitting in the sun like this for a few minutes, the flour was scrubbed off by hand, and then a hot water bath taken. For shampoo, two traditional herbs are recommended. Kunkudukai and shikakai. Both are used as it is without any processing. Kunkudukai would be crushed and mixed with water to form a liquid and then applied on head. Amazingly, it would form a lather when rubbed on the head. I remember doing this type of head bath every sunday, until about 2005. Any shampoo was forbidden in our home. The items were dead cheap too. [Edit] Kinkudukai is also called soapnut. https://www.stylecraze.com/articles/benefits-of-soapnuts-for-skin-hair-and-health/ https://www.stylecraze.com/articles/benefits-of-soapnuts-for... The above site tends to exaggerate the benifits a bit, but it is believed that kunkudukai inhibhits dandruff and is anti-fungal and anti-bacterial. By personal experience, it tastes absolutely vomit inducing bitter and will burn your eyes to high hell if as much as a diluted drop enters it. Its a natural, safe and environmentally friendly way of taking a head bath.

b112 4y ago
[flagged]
- aetherson 4y ago
  While the large majority of people were peasants, the ratio obviously wasn't 99,999:1.
- swatcoder 4y ago
  I don’t think you’re aware of how much any capable person can procure for themselves and their peers, throughout almost all of global history. Peasants may not maintain secure access to everything, but historically it doesn’t take wealth to have a sturdy shelter, water, warmth, and food, and even some luxuries. It’s a little different in modern times, but those basics were mostly available to everyone just through labor and time, of which peasants have quite a lot.

eevilspock 4y ago

History is written by the upper class, especially in past times when only the upper caste could read or write. Even if what the author says is true about medieval upper caste people (I don't doubt it), I have trouble believing that peasants could afford the cost and time required of regular bathing. Water didn't come easily unless you happened to live next to a river or have a well next to your house. We've all seen women in third world countries carrying water for cooking and drinking on their heads, often long distances. And we haven't even gotten to the costs of the other things she mentions. Poor people rarely ate meat because they couldn't afford it; where are they going to get animal fat to make soap? The author doesn't provide any evidence, just makes claims using words to imply you're stupid if you doubt her. All the "photographic" evidence she provides all pretty clearly DO NOT depict poor people.

andrew_ 4y ago
I enjoyed the color in the language, it was entertaining. But it definitely wasn't a scholarly article haha.
kumarvvr 4y ago
> We've all seen women in third world countries carrying water for cooking and drinking on their heads, often long distances This aspect of 3rd world countries is commented upon again and again. But, what I find most amusing is that in modern times, water comes to your home, but you go to the gym to slog it out for an hour. Just waster your energy that you over ate the day before. Its true that women used to carry water over a few kilometers every day. But in most cases, water sources were available nearby (Most settlements happened in the vicinity of water sources, and there are many historical references that show whole villages up and leaving in search of water sources if their current source seems depleted) Across the board, obesity is high, BP problems are high, Diabetes problems are high, people have lesser stamina and strength and a whole host of health problems, that were not even an issue a few decades ago are now mainstream. In ancient times, we depended on nature and it necessitated regular work for living a life. Getting water from local well or pond, cooling for long hours, household chores like washing clothes, etc took a long time. People traveled a lot by foot, etc. Life was hard, but life was healthy too. To account for accidents, health issues in old age, etc, joint families were the norm, where the family and the society supported a disabled person or an incapacitated person to the extent possible. Modern living in convenient, but not healthy. Is luxurious, but not cheap. Is plentiful, but not sustainable.

andrew_ 4y ago

Had me right up until the last paragraph. One does not have to be a colonialist or carry bias to have misconceptions about the midevil period. Ignorance is a fine reason. I myself am a huge fan of history but mostly ignorant about that time period. It's just never been my jam. I'll admit I'd probably think the "bring out your dead" and "oh Dennis, there's some lovely filth down here" sketches in Monty Python's Holy Grail was somewhat accurate before reading the article.

Osmose 4y ago
The article doesn't claim that the misconception makes you colonialist, it says that this kind of ignorance ultimately _perpetuates_ a colonialist interpretation of history, which is why she feels strongly about what may seem like a minor issue to others. It's not about blaming you in particular, it's about why this was important enough to her to write about.
southerntofu 4y ago
> One does not have to be a colonialist or carry bias to have misconceptions about the midevil period. No obligation indeed, but there is a historical correlation, at least where i come from (France). Myths about the medieval era as times of barbarism and suffering have emerged with the "renaissance" (and its witch hunts which did not take place during the medieval era) then the "enlightenment" (Lumières) of the 18th century. That's entirely correlated with the emergence of the "civilizing mission" of republican colonialism [0], whereas king/church-driven colonization before that was based on the idea that colonized peoples were not human and did not have a soul, as was ruled during the Valladolid trials of the 16th century [1]. In Western Europe, to my knowledge, it took until the late 19th/early 20th socialist/anarchist thinkers (Friedrich Engels, Pierre Clastres) to recognize that there were different cultures and that social/societal progress was not universal and linear. These ideas are still not really accepted across society as the entire field of economics is based on the idea of linear material progress and that those poor "backwards"/"underdeveloped" peoples need help from us "enlightened" westerners (see also David Graeber for a critique of such productivity metrics [2]). [0] For example, a famous french politician who's remember in the nationalist propaganda as the father of public schools (Jules Ferry), would say that it's "the role of more civilized peoples to educate the lesser peoples". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valladolid_debate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valladolid_debate [2] Managerial Feudalism and the revolt of the caring classes

cm2012 4y ago

I feel very grateful for reddit.com/r/askhistorians. I feel like they are the only source I can trust on figuring out the best truth we know about history.

_gabe_ 4y ago
> I feel like they are the only source I can trust on figuring out the best truth we know about history. I hope this isn't a widespread belief. If it is, then this concerns me.
- prox 4y ago
  The answers are usually quite rigorous. The best answers usually give a good state of affairs in academia as well. All of the answers are sourced. In the fields where I know something about, it’s usually correct/as I know it to be.
- nonima 4y ago

nevershower 4y ago

I always had sensitive skin. I stopped using products in my hair, then I stopped showering my head, then I stopped showering altogether. Now I shower about once a month, washing only parts between the legs daily. I am the most smelly after I shower, that sour sweaty smell. Incidentally I read that this is some kind of fad in Hollywood.

rendall 4y ago
> then I stopped showering altogether After having had over the course of my life a small number of friends who stopped bathing for one reason or another, and my successfully talking them back into the habit, I will tell you what I told them: With respect, I guarantee you, you stink to the people around you, and you cannot smell it yourself. Find a soap that does not irritate your skin and use it. Also, launder your clothes. We humans sweat proteins, which when they decay, smell bad. If we sweat into our clothes, the proteins remain there and smell bad. The people around you unconsciously interpret this as illness, and will instinctively avoid you. My friends who stopped cleaning (and were not ill in some way) almost universally were questioning societal standards after childhoods with controlling parents, as hippies or otherwise back-to-nature transcendentalists. Not sure if that's you, but if so, it checks.
- nevershower 4y ago
  Thanks for the reality check.

astrobe_ 4y ago

Someone mentioned in the comments of TFA, but soap-making was an industry in a southern french town since ancient times. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille_soap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marseille_soap

othello 4y ago
Absolutely! Also “town” seems rather uncharitable as Marseille has been a city without interruption for the past 2600 years since it’s founding as Massalia by Greek colonists - making it almost as old as Rome. It’s home to 1.8 million today, and a beautiful place to visit! [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Marseille
tgv 4y ago
> The first documented soapmaker was recorded there in about 1370. That's not ancient times. That's practically Renaissance.
- hypertele-Xii 4y ago
  Wikipedia says [0] it's late middle ages, and only mentions the beginning of Italian reneissance. Though the word "ancient" has more specific meaning in history than is being used here, probably, referring to pre- middle ages (classical antiquity). It's not ancient times, but also not quite reneissance yet. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_century

raarts 4y ago

tgv 4y ago
> The writer presents little numbers on prevalence. IMO, the writer doesn't present any argument at all. All she does is repeat that "clearly, fucking clearly medieval people bathed and were clean and into it" in a number of linguistic variations. The evidence presented consists of a list of rules from a public bath and some skincare tips from Hildegard von Bingen. How that implies "[M]edieval people bathed regularly. I am very serious. It is true." is beyond me. Unless it's a joke?
simion314 4y ago
>Where are all the bath tubs found in excavations? At least here in Easter Europe we were still using wood "bath tubes" until recent times. Wood stuff does not preserve. Also there was no room for "bath", this bath-tubes are portable, so you get the out when you need them then store them away. Sorry for the bad quality of img, this are traditional fromRomania https://adroa.top/ant/?header=Covat%C4%83+de+lemn+foarte+veche https://adroa.top/ant/?header=Covat%C4%83+de+lemn+foarte+vec.... https://frankfurt.apollo.olxcdn.com/v1/files/13e2dt7g3zx82-RO/image;s=644x461 https://frankfurt.apollo.olxcdn.com/v1/files/13e2dt7g3zx82-R...
- raarts 4y ago
  Wood stuff does not preserve? Other furniture does. And even then, they need iron bands to hold them together. Also, rain barrels.
  - simion314 4y ago
    This wood tubes do not use metal or nails, are made from just one piece of wood. When I was a child we had a big ree, one day my grandffather brought a family of wood workers , they cut the tree and madfe a ton of wood stuff from it, including big and small "tubes" , the small ones are used for backing or as containers, big and small spoons, other wood stuff I don't remember. But it was all curved, no nails or glue. This is possible because this tree is very soft and easy to work with, so you will not find 2000 years old wood tools in an ancient city or village ruins but you will find them in a few hundred years old homes in museums. I was attempting to show that you should not demand archaeologists to find you bathrooms so you are convinced people were bathing. Peasant homes do not have a room dedicated for bath, and the bath tubes are wooden tools not stone or metal so you could find them if you know how to google but I can't tell you the english name for this.

kgeist 4y ago

I thought it varied by country, class, etc. I remember reading that Anna of Kiev (if I'm not mistaken), after visiting France, had a culture shock that French aristocracy smelled badly, apparently due to inadequate bathing.

webmobdev 4y ago
One of the kings believed water spread diseases, and asked everyone in his court to avoid bathing - The Smelly History of French Royals at the Palace of Versailles - https://historyofyesterday.com/the-smelly-history-of-french-royals-at-the-palace-of-versailles-e55238fc1072 https://historyofyesterday.com/the-smelly-history-of-french-... ... Marie Antoinette hit by ‘flying human poo’ at Palace of Versailles - https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1562426/marie-antoinette-human-poo-palace-of-versailles-channel-5-history-kate-williams-spt https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1562426/marie-antoinett...

verisimi 4y ago

History is only an expedient story, not that much to do with reality. We really can't know how people lived a 1000 years ago, despite what might appear to be mountains of evidence. This evidence is actually the creation of historians in the past century... and when you look at their sources for yourself, you will see that they are open to interpretation despite being presented as fact. For the ruling structure today, saying that the peasants of yesteryear were dirty, and even the nobility, supports the idea that we are progressing and have never had it so good. As if better tech means we have better lives. To me, it is a perfectly plausible idea that how people lived in the 'medieval' times was far more equitable, natural and healthy than today. But that story doesn't 'sell' - who would want the tech dystopia we are coding ourselves into, if a pastoral idyll were held up to it? History is what is expedient for the present. It is the story the present governance structure would like you to believe.

prox 4y ago
While that is true for writing (who wrote this? Why? How critical is the author?) There is a ton we do know. From literature/art to archeological excavations. Ofcourse, the further you go back, you get more and more filters that make things fuzzy. Lots of things were made of wood for instance, it doesn’t survive on the whole. Medieval lives in the west were very prone to disturbing forces : invasions, successions of lords/kings, religious clashes, poverty, draughts and deceases. My own ancestors in the 17th/early 18th century died from 6 different deceases and floods and harsh winters. There were “poor hunters” , hunters who kept out the poor from the village. Of 14 children, only one ancestor survived in that time of whom I descent. Another part of the family in another section of the country lived reasonably well and in peace at least. They were able to marry into better living conditions. Life in medieval times could be pastoral, but it could just as well be a wretched existence. It depends where you look and in what time.
- verisimi 4y ago
  > There is a ton we do know. From literature/art to archeological excavations. What do you think 'we' know? Is 'knowing' even a group activity? It is not of course, we can only know what we personally verify. Now you can say that you are familiar with what an archeologist has written about what he found, but it is another thing to look at the sources for yourself and see if you concur with the conclusions. I'd be interested to hear more on how you know so much about your family in the 17th and 18th centuries, especially if they were poor. If you have good information and sources that would definitely be unusual, at least as far as what I have found. Most people have hardly any records of their family history.

pipeline_peak 4y ago

> In fact soap is a motherfucking medieval invention Soap goes as far back as Babylon, you Anglophilic weeaboo.

kgeist 4y ago

The Old Norse word for Saturday, laugardagr, literally means "washing day". This custom still survives here in countryside Eastern Europe where many people routinely go to sauna (banya) every Saturday (or Sunday like my family). Before the 20th century, a lot of Eastern Europe (especially Russia) still lived like they lived in the middle ages: 95% of the country were serfs on feudal property living in traditional wooden houses with no modern benefits of civilization, and the bathing culture was pervasive: there were saunas (banyas) everywhere, and most villages were close to a river so water access was not a problem. Saunas were also a place where people gave birth. I find it hard to believe that Russian peasants were living the same lifestyle for centuries and only recently decided to start bathing. My family comes from Old Believers, a religous group which rejected church reforms of the 1600's and went into hiding in taiga, they preserved pretty ancient customs and their bathing culture was pretty intricate: for example, there always must be a separate towel/bucket of water for head, body, feet - this wouldn't have developed without a rich bathing culture before. Those villagers who could not afford their own sauna bathed in... ovens (inside the house). It's one of the older customs still preserved in some places. The traditional oven was pretty large and a whole person could fit in it. My mother was bathed like that when she was a child in their Old Believer village. However, I don't know if this was specific to Eastern/Northern Europe or common in Western Europe, too. I remember reading that due to overpopulation and deforestation it was harder for West Europeans to have frequent bathing every week. But here, population wasn't dense and forests were abundant.

mongol 4y ago
Yes and this is to this day the Swedish word for Saturday: lördag, from "lögardagen". Same etymology as laugardagr.
- kzrdude 4y ago
  Well, laugardagr is the etymology, isn't it? The modern shapes of this weekday name are still used in the scandinavian languages, and Icelandic, Finnish and Estonian.
  - 4y ago

walrus01 4y ago

If you read translations of early medieval Arabic language travelers that visited Europe, they were almost all universally appalled by the state of hygiene and sewage/waste in major cities in general. Not saying people didn't bathe at all but it clearly didn't meet societally acceptable standards of an educated person from Cairo or Baghdad.

rendall 4y ago
> medieval Arabic language travelers that visited Europe There was only one IIRC, Ahmad ibn Fadlan, who wrote disparagingly only of the habits of the Vikings of the upper Volga river.
drops 4y ago
Could you recommend some of the mentioned translations?
selimthegrim 4y ago
Kath and Gurganj were not exactly up to their standards either.

gala8y 4y ago

It's interesting to note that, when water is really scarce, people can take care of themselves without water. Himba people, living nomad life on savannas of Namibia and Angola, practically do not use water for everyday hygiene. Shaving heads (men), making dreads with mud (women), oiling body with liquid butter with ochre pigment from soil. Additionally, women use herbs incense as anti-microbial and fragrance. Added: As culi points out in another comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364340 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32364340) "(...) ammonia oxidizing bacteria can oxidize our sweat and prevent us from stinking. AOBs are found in soils pretty much everywhere."

punnerud 4y ago

Don’t remove my scroll bar

Max-q 4y ago

Nice article that would have been even better without all the “ass” and “fucking”.

posed 4y ago
Exactly. I had to stop reading once it got out of hand.
birthday 4y ago
What! No I loved it. Gave me a good laugh once or twice. Read it with a smile.

lemursage 4y ago

I found Katherine’s Ashenburg „Dirt on clean” book a nice read on how perception hygiene evolved over ages. It definitely reads as popscience, but for uninitiated ignorants like myself it was pretty sufficient. I see the author cites one of her other books in [6] as well.

ncmncm 4y ago

As it was explained to me, the soap people made themselves in the old days was so much better than today's, a bath could last you weeks, or even months. This modern stuff you can buy barely lasts a day.

Boltgolt 4y ago
Maybe, but i don't think the best soap the world has ever seen will keep me from smelling like sweat after a few hot days
- ncmncm 4y ago
  Yeah, like I said, modern soap. You can't buy the good stuff at all.
  - hypertele-Xii 4y ago
    Where do you shop that doesn't sell plain old soap bars? Need me to mail some for you?
    - ncmncm 4y ago
      Obviously, plain old soap bars will not suffice to make a bath last for weeks or months. As I said pretty clearly, and you must have read, you cannot buy the good stuff.
      - happyopossum 4y ago
        You’re gonna need a lot more evidence than “it was explained to me”… It’s trivially easy to find ancient soap recipes and revert them at hope. Or one can buy Aleppo soap, or Castilian soap from specialty markets. It’s not like there’s some lost secret, or extinct ingredients - it’s soap, and it’s been a pretty simple thing to make for thousands of years.
        ncmncm 4y ago

macrolime 4y ago

Clicking through here led me down a medieval rabbit hole and I reading about medieval math education, it seems music was an integral part of mathematics at the time with arithmetic (numbers as abstract concepts), geometry (numbers in space), music (numbers in time) and astronomy (numbers in space and time). These days using music or sound as an aid in mathematics is very uncommon. These days we only use graphs, diagrams, geometrical figures and. We have stopped using one of our senses for math. When did this happen? I imagine sound could be useful for alternative ways of experiencing mathematical object as not just geometry, but also as ways to explore concepts in higher dimensions by using audio for some dimensions. In complex analysis, colors are used to visualize four dimensions but audio remains very niche. A bunch of numbers in a table is often difficult to make sense of by looking at the numbers but can give many intuitive insights when visualized. I imagine there are probably things that are easier to make sense of if your hear it than visualize it. Maybe music should be put back in math education.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

t-3 4y ago

Not sure how true it is, but my HS European history teacher blamed the Catholic Church and nobility for misinformation regarding the so-called Dark Ages. Apparently, they weren't too happy about widespread atheism or peasants burning the tax and accounting records.

kurupt213 4y ago

The writing is obnoxious

DrewADesign 4y ago
Kinda cringeworthy, TBH. Great info though and her later entries seem much better.

andsoitis 4y ago

In fact, maybe they bathed TOO much: https://going-medieval.com/2019/08/02/i-assure-you-medieval-people-bathed/ https://going-medieval.com/2019/08/02/i-assure-you-medieval-... But they also gave us soap, there's that.

peoplefromibiza 4y ago

bathing and hygiene were not in direct correlation in ancient history, the correlation between unwashed hands, germs and diseases was long to be discovered. Bathing was mostly a ritualistic activity or a social activity (see Roman thermal baths) We know Romans, Egyptians and very possibly other cultures shaved themselves almost completely both as a social gathering activity (barbershops were very popular places for gossips and news) and to prevent lices. So yeah they bathed, some ancient cultures did that a lot, they might have been clean people, doesn't mean their hygiene was generally good nor better than the civilizations before them. They still walked around in cities or villages with no sewage systems where people and animals lived together. It's no mistery and no wonder that medieval times were plagued by all kinds of diseases and epidemics.

deepzn 4y ago

That's why a lot of medieval RPG's have soaps in them. Even Elden Ring has it lol.

tlogan 4y ago

Here are some contra points: - Aztecs were burning incense around the conquistadors to hide their unpleasant body odor (documented) - The Christian Church actually said bathing naked was forbidden - the pope instructed all public bath to be closed - The monks order clearly said to bath only once a year - general decline of the cities caused that a lot of public baths to be closed. Rome had none in medieval time. - Muslim and Byzantine records mentioned how dirty westener were My understanding was that bathing was strongly discouraged by church and in places where church did not have a lot on influence or they become Christian latter like Skandinavia bathing was still considered important.

webmobdev 4y ago
> The Christian Church actually said bathing naked was forbidden ... the pope instructed all public bath to be closed ... The monks order clearly said to bath only once a year ... My understanding was that bathing was strongly discouraged by church ... The article does highlight and bring some context to this: ... Well the idea that medieval people didn’t bathe is a persistent myth ... Why is that? Well part of it is a modern misunderstanding of the idea of bathing. It’s true that we have medieval sources which warn against “excessive” bathing. But here’s the thing, that wasn’t really about being clean, it was about hanging out naked in bathhouses with the opposite sex. They didn’t want you to not be clean, they wanted you to not be going down the bath house and getting your fuck on. ... And yeah, some holy people didn’t bathe, notably saints who would forego bathing themselves but bathe sick or poor people ... But if you bring that up you are missing the point. Medieval people thought that bathing and being clean was really nice, so giving it up and living with your stank was a sign that you had given up on the corporeal world and only thought of heaven. It was holy because it was uncomfortable, like wearing a hair shirt, or eating vegan, and hitting your chest with rocks and sitting in the desert trying not to wank. You know, standard saint stuff. It is mentioned because it is uncommon and uncomfortable ... These things, while they make sense in context are often taken by people who have never learned a damn thing about the middle ages and read in the worst possible light. > Muslim and Byzantine records mentioned how dirty westener were That may have been probably true from the perspective of muslims because in Islam personal hygiene is part of the religious obligations of muslims. Religious muslims are supposed to pray 3/5 times a day, but before they do so they are supposed to clean themselves as per a prescribed ritual called wudu ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wudu ). So a religious muslim, even in the medieval times, would be cleaning himself atleast 3/5 times a day (and that's apart from regular bathing). Thus, in comparison to that, some non-muslims could have been perceived as "dirty". It would have been even more so for them if they also learnt of christian saints and / or leaders promoting not bathing as a path to salvation, when their religion tells the exact opposite.

m33k44 4y ago

There is a Hindu mythological story in India about how the elephant god ganpati/gajanan/ganesh(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha) got his elephant head while his body is of a human. The story goes something like this, Shiva/Shankar/Mahesh(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva) is a god of destruction in Hinduism. When he was out in the forest, his wife Parvati was alone and had to go for a bath. But she was concerned what if some stranger gets into the house while she was bathing. So to prevent anyone getting into the house she removes the layer of sandalwood and turmeric paste she had applied to her body and makes an idol of a boy and puts life into him. As the boy comes to life she instructs him to guard the house and not let anyone enter while his mother(Parvati) is having a bath. Her husband returns after a while. Parvati is still in the bath. And as he tries to enter the house, the boy prevents him from doing so saying that his mother has instructed him not to let anyone inside the house. Shiva, known for his temper, gets angry and throws his weapon, trishul(trident), at the boy which chops off his head and it falls somewhere in the forest. Parvati, when she returns from her bath sees the headless body of her son and gets angry at Shiva and demands that he bring the boy back to life. But there is a problem, the head is missing. So Shiva goes in search of the head into the forest but he is unable to find it. So when he sees an elephant in the forest, he chops off the head of the animal and attaches it to the boys body and puts life back into it. That is how people of HN, the Hindu god Ganpati got his elephant head :) Now, did I mention this is a mythological story? So please be kind to this gentle soul. I only narrated this story because it includes the concept of bathing :D There are lot of such stories in Indian mythology where there is mention of bathing.

fithisux 4y ago
Beautiful

dqpb 4y ago

> (and were largely owned by the Bishop of Winchester (as you do). I read to the end. He never closed his parentheses.

dqpb 4y ago

You don’t need a whole tub to bathe. A person can take a reasonable “shower” with a bucket of water and a cup. It’s much easier to heat one bucket of water than to fill a whole tub. I would be surprised if peasants didn’t primarily take bucket baths.

wackget 4y ago

The content of the article was interesting but the writing style was stupid and infantile. You couldn't share this article with a colleague, a parent, or anyone who might not understand the "quirky" writing style filled with references to pop culture memes and expletives. TL;DR immaturely written for no reason.

humanistbot 4y ago
The site is called "Going Medieval: Medieval History, Pop Culture, Swearing." I'm pretty sure it is not intended to be an academic article.

elzbardico 4y ago

There is a lot of misunderstanding about the medieval ages, starting with the tired and utterly wrong “dark ages”

ninefathom 4y ago

This article is peppered with factual errors. While none of them detract from the core idea, they do lead one to question Dr. Janega's scholarship. Here's a modest sampling: - Soap is given as a medieval invention, but this is stretching to the extreme both the idea of "inventing soap" and the idea of "medieval." In reality it was widely made and used at least as a hair wash by the waning days of the Western Roman empire. - The ingredients list for soap contains a number of equivalent or derived ingredients listed as though totally separate, as if the author weren't aware of the relationships and went copy-pasta crazy from mixed sources. - Aleppo soap is described as if made exclusively from laurel oil (rather than the correct mixture of laurel and olive oils). - The photo shown of a light brown bar of soap with a caption seeming to suggest that it's Castille soap is in all likelihood actually Aleppo soap (cf. the text of the Arabic seal, which is rather humorously shown upside-down). - The description of a deodorant made using "salvia and sage" is rather perplexing, as salvia is the Latin word for sage... and the name of the modern genus of plants containing common sage. A reference to salvia in the colloquial modern sense of Salvia divinorum seems unlikely in the extreme. All told, while this is an interesting read, and does contain some useful information, from a scholarly perspective it seems to be, at best, slipshod.

birthday 4y ago

Now I want to go inside a sauna, put some clay on my body. Detox, clean, mmmm and moisturize when done. Then get into freshly washed Egyptian cotton sheets to have a good night's sleep for 8 hours.