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Are we really doing this? Are you really serious? Besides the fact that most of the country is firewalled off from foreign media, and besides the fact that only

Are we really doing this? Are you really serious? Besides the fact that most of the country is firewalled off from foreign media, and besides the fact that only one political party is allowed, and besides the fact that political prisoners are routinely jailed for nothing more than denying a government narrative, holding mock polls, publishing or assembling (and I don't mean held for a day or two like in the West, but jailed for years) Can a US citizen go on media, or organize a public protest, in which they call Joe Biden or Donald Trump, bad people, with bad policies? Yes, US citizens can publicly call for the highest level politicians in the land to lose their jobs, and with no real repercussions. People on social media can scream "Let's Go Brandon" or meme like crazy about Biden. But Weibo, Wechat, Bilibili, Douyin, frequently censor even the most milquetoast sarcastic remarks about the CCP or Xi, including the infamous Baozi and Panda blocks. Can a famous Chinese public individual/celebrity/intellectual, in China, tell a huge crowd and media, that I think the CCP are horrible and that Xi Jinping needs to be booted from power? Stop trying to draw false equivalencies. > I mean, some people believe there are no public elections in China, so… Sure, where the CCP select and approve the candidates, control the election progress, and there is no free media coverage or transparency free of state control. Practically no real international election monitors. And no direct nationwide elections. Rather, a many levels of indirection process, effectively controlled by a President for life. Let's see what happens at Beidaihe and the 20th national congress in November. Think anything will change? I don't. There's practical no competing, transparent system in these so called 'democratic elections' making them in effort, a Potemkin village with the veneer of popular will, but in fact, nothing of the sort. There are about 50 individuals in the US congress worth more than $10 million, and not a single one who is a billionaire. Trump was the only billionaire to have office. Meanwhile, there are 100+ CCP members in the Congress who are billionaires. Does this look like a system chosen by public debate, awareness, and discussion? For all of the flaws in the Western systems, and there are a vast number, it is really tiring seeing tankies try to say "everything's the same" with zero nuance, as if none of it matters.

trasz 4y ago
>Are we really doing this? Are you really serious? See, there's your problem: when you realise facts don't match your beliefs, you start "are we really" instead of reconsidering those beliefs. >Besides the fact that most of the country is firewalled off from foreign media Foreign media is easily accessible in China using VPN. Meanwhile, Chinese (or non-western in general) media is pretty much entirely unknown in US. It's largely because of language barrier, but not only that. >and besides the fact that only one political party is allowed Only until you realise that party is something entirely different from what we in the West call parties. But even if it was similar, it wouldn't be much worse than the American system, where you have two parties that are very closely related and sponsored by the same corporations. >and besides the fact that political prisoners are routinely jailed for nothing more than denying a government narrative In US people are routinely killed on the street for nothing more than being black. Seriously though, do you really believe there's no political discourse in China? >and I don't mean held for a day or two like in the West, but jailed for years In US you can get jailed for years for literally nothing, simply because it's less risky to give up and go to jail for a shorter sentence than prove your innocence, and prosecutors abuse this all the time. Or for any minor infraction because the three strikes law, which was literally created to get as many people into jails as possible. And let's not forget the forced labor. >Yes, US citizens can publicly call for the highest level politicians in the land to lose their jobs, and with no real repercussions. ... to those politicians. That's the point: in US you are allowed to say whatever you want, because it doesn't matter; the election system is already rigged, everyone knows that it's not the majority choice that wins elections, and nobody cares - because nobody can do anything about it. Compare this to China, where government officials can actually get convicted and jailed. Chinese prime minister responsible for Tienanmen spent the rest of his life in house arrest. American officials responsible for Kent State shootings, or for the bombing a city block, killing a number of random kids and shooting at survivors, which name escapes me - nobody got prosecuted. >But Weibo, Wechat, Bilibili, Douyin, frequently censor even the most milquetoast sarcastic remarks about the CCP or Xi [citation needed] >Can a famous Chinese public individual/celebrity/intellectual, in China, tell a huge crowd and media, that I think the CCP are horrible and that Xi Jinping needs to be booted from power? Can a famous US public individual, in US, tell a huge crowd and media that they believe US supreme court and Senate need to be booted from power? >Sure, where the CCP select and approve the candidates, control the election progress Exactly like in US; the party nominates various public officials who oversee the elections, not to mention gerrymandering. >And no direct nationwide elections. Just like US presidential elections. Although I'm not sure if in China it's legal to corrupt electors; in US it is and it has already happened in the past. >Think anything will change? I don't. So, here's the thing: things do change, all the time. If you actually read anything about Chinese political system, you'd noticed that the "old" communist party, the one which stood for Cultural Revolution, has been delegalised. China wouldn't be able to develop order of magnitude faster than US without changes to law. Meanwhile in US you can still land in prison for life just because you're out of luck. >There's practical no competing, transparent system in these so called 'democratic elections' making them in effort And here we go again, Americans believing there is no political discourse in other countries, and at the same pretending with straight face that the US is a functional democracy. >Meanwhile, there are 100+ CCP members in the Congress who are billionaires. Thank you, that's interesting. Source? >For all of the flaws in the Western systems, and there are a vast number, it is really tiring seeing tankies try to say "everything's the same" with zero nuance, as if none of it matters. See, here's the thing: I do understand your point; it was my point of view for the past two decades. Until I realised it just doesn't match observable reality. What you are describing is just prejudice; a colonial mindset based on a combination of racism and ignorance, which is what American exceptionalism boils down to. Also, we're not talking about "Western systems"; there are many western countries that are proper democracies. But US is not one of them. It's a pseudo-democracy, like China, except it serves corporations, not people. That's why the quality of life in US is dropping, while in China it's skyrocketing. Ever wondered why Americans get so surprised whenever some Chinese oligarch gets into trouble? Or how comes an American court can let a convicted pedophile free because "he wouldn't feel good in a jail", assuming of course he's wealthy enough?
- illiac786 4y ago
  This is trolling. You are purposefully answering beside the point or using false comparisons. Example: * china is firewalled off * you: oh but there’s VPN. you are really impacting the quality of the discussion, I would love to understand why you’re dining this though. Bored or do you have an agenda?
  - trasz 4y ago
    Have you ever wondered why things that doesn't match your state propaganda appear to be a trolling? I'd love to understand why are you doing this: are you bored, uneducated, or just US shill? I mean, the fact that you're not making sense should be obvious even to you, as you can't provide even a single argument to support your "point of view".
    - illiac786 4y ago
      No, what I wonder is why you make a lot of statement like "state propaganda" without knowing which state I live in and without quoting any source. Please prove a/ my state (Germany) is doing propaganda and b/ I am only listening to this propaganda. Also, you're sentences do not make sense. "Why you are doing this" => what is "this", you forgot to define it. Meanwhile, China is a country where people live in fear of publicly expressing their opinion, this is well documented. 10s on the web finds this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Chin...
      - trasz 4y ago
        Okay, so you’re shilling for somebody else’s country. A bit sad, but it’s not for me to judge. > Also, you're sentences do not make sense. "Why you are doing this" That’s your sentence, I just quoted it. >China is a country where people live in fear of publicly expressing their opinion Just like the US - you don’t have any protections against an employer firing you for something you said in your free time, because it “goes against company values”. You’re also mistaking freedom of press with freedom of speech, but again, that’s a minor mistake in this context. But most of all: you still hadn’t shown any actual data to back your ideas.

trasz 4y ago

>Are we really doing this? Are you really serious? See, there's your problem: when you realise facts don't match your beliefs, you start "are we really" instead of reconsidering those beliefs. >Besides the fact that most of the country is firewalled off from foreign media Foreign media is easily accessible in China using VPN. Meanwhile, Chinese (or non-western in general) media is pretty much entirely unknown in US. It's largely because of language barrier, but not only that. >and besides the fact that only one political party is allowed Only until you realise that party is something entirely different from what we in the West call parties. But even if it was similar, it wouldn't be much worse than the American system, where you have two parties that are very closely related and sponsored by the same corporations. >and besides the fact that political prisoners are routinely jailed for nothing more than denying a government narrative In US people are routinely killed on the street for nothing more than being black. Seriously though, do you really believe there's no political discourse in China? >and I don't mean held for a day or two like in the West, but jailed for years In US you can get jailed for years for literally nothing, simply because it's less risky to give up and go to jail for a shorter sentence than prove your innocence, and prosecutors abuse this all the time. Or for any minor infraction because the three strikes law, which was literally created to get as many people into jails as possible. And let's not forget the forced labor. >Yes, US citizens can publicly call for the highest level politicians in the land to lose their jobs, and with no real repercussions. ... to those politicians. That's the point: in US you are allowed to say whatever you want, because it doesn't matter; the election system is already rigged, everyone knows that it's not the majority choice that wins elections, and nobody cares - because nobody can do anything about it. Compare this to China, where government officials can actually get convicted and jailed. Chinese prime minister responsible for Tienanmen spent the rest of his life in house arrest. American officials responsible for Kent State shootings, or for the bombing a city block, killing a number of random kids and shooting at survivors, which name escapes me - nobody got prosecuted. >But Weibo, Wechat, Bilibili, Douyin, frequently censor even the most milquetoast sarcastic remarks about the CCP or Xi [citation needed] >Can a famous Chinese public individual/celebrity/intellectual, in China, tell a huge crowd and media, that I think the CCP are horrible and that Xi Jinping needs to be booted from power? Can a famous US public individual, in US, tell a huge crowd and media that they believe US supreme court and Senate need to be booted from power? >Sure, where the CCP select and approve the candidates, control the election progress Exactly like in US; the party nominates various public officials who oversee the elections, not to mention gerrymandering. >And no direct nationwide elections. Just like US presidential elections. Although I'm not sure if in China it's legal to corrupt electors; in US it is and it has already happened in the past. >Think anything will change? I don't. So, here's the thing: things do change, all the time. If you actually read anything about Chinese political system, you'd noticed that the "old" communist party, the one which stood for Cultural Revolution, has been delegalised. China wouldn't be able to develop order of magnitude faster than US without changes to law. Meanwhile in US you can still land in prison for life just because you're out of luck. >There's practical no competing, transparent system in these so called 'democratic elections' making them in effort And here we go again, Americans believing there is no political discourse in other countries, and at the same pretending with straight face that the US is a functional democracy. >Meanwhile, there are 100+ CCP members in the Congress who are billionaires. Thank you, that's interesting. Source? >For all of the flaws in the Western systems, and there are a vast number, it is really tiring seeing tankies try to say "everything's the same" with zero nuance, as if none of it matters. See, here's the thing: I do understand your point; it was my point of view for the past two decades. Until I realised it just doesn't match observable reality. What you are describing is just prejudice; a colonial mindset based on a combination of racism and ignorance, which is what American exceptionalism boils down to. Also, we're not talking about "Western systems"; there are many western countries that are proper democracies. But US is not one of them. It's a pseudo-democracy, like China, except it serves corporations, not people. That's why the quality of life in US is dropping, while in China it's skyrocketing. Ever wondered why Americans get so surprised whenever some Chinese oligarch gets into trouble? Or how comes an American court can let a convicted pedophile free because "he wouldn't feel good in a jail", assuming of course he's wealthy enough?

illiac786 4y ago
This is trolling. You are purposefully answering beside the point or using false comparisons. Example: * china is firewalled off * you: oh but there’s VPN. you are really impacting the quality of the discussion, I would love to understand why you’re dining this though. Bored or do you have an agenda?
- trasz 4y ago
  Have you ever wondered why things that doesn't match your state propaganda appear to be a trolling? I'd love to understand why are you doing this: are you bored, uneducated, or just US shill? I mean, the fact that you're not making sense should be obvious even to you, as you can't provide even a single argument to support your "point of view".
  - illiac786 4y ago
    No, what I wonder is why you make a lot of statement like "state propaganda" without knowing which state I live in and without quoting any source. Please prove a/ my state (Germany) is doing propaganda and b/ I am only listening to this propaganda. Also, you're sentences do not make sense. "Why you are doing this" => what is "this", you forgot to define it. Meanwhile, China is a country where people live in fear of publicly expressing their opinion, this is well documented. 10s on the web finds this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_China https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_the_press_in_Chin...
    - trasz 4y ago
      Okay, so you’re shilling for somebody else’s country. A bit sad, but it’s not for me to judge. > Also, you're sentences do not make sense. "Why you are doing this" That’s your sentence, I just quoted it. >China is a country where people live in fear of publicly expressing their opinion Just like the US - you don’t have any protections against an employer firing you for something you said in your free time, because it “goes against company values”. You’re also mistaking freedom of press with freedom of speech, but again, that’s a minor mistake in this context. But most of all: you still hadn’t shown any actual data to back your ideas.