3 ms·

The US system purposely disfavors the merchant. Imagine being arrested and having to prove your innocence at trial, instead of the other way around. Alipay fr

The US system purposely disfavors the merchant. Imagine being arrested and having to prove your innocence at trial, instead of the other way around. Alipay from what I understand tries to have a more neutral process. And it means the buyer can't exploit the asymmetry of one button click (to get a refund unless the merchant deals with a mountain of bureaucracy) vs dealing with the bureaucracy. It is better that if there is a disagreement, both have to deal with the bureaucracy.

metadat 4y ago
Clearly you've never been arrested. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a fantasy in the USA, especially if you're a part of a minority group. 90-95% of cases settle with a plea bargain, because the punishment will be disproportionately severe if you lose the case. Regardless, any system which inherently favors businesses over individuals is wrong. Businesses have the option of building the known cost of fraud into the products, whereas individual customers can easily get screwed without any recourse. What good is a gift card if the store turns out to be a bad actor? Ideally neither side should be favored and the process should be impartial and difficult to game. Dunno how to make such a system though, humans are a crafty bunch. "Better a thousand guilty people go free than imprison an innocent."
- notch656a 4y ago
  Lol I'll do you one better. I've had DHS "not arrest" me but put me in a jail cell, booked and fingerprinted me, including transport by prison van, all while only "being detained." That's right, you can be jailed without even being arrested or accused of a crime.
  - labster 4y ago
    Japanese police can detain suspects for up to 30 days before pressing charges… per crime. I remember reading about how long Carlos Ghosn was held because he had the temerity to not confess.
  - JTbane 4y ago
    IMO both DHS and ICE are long overdue for some limitations of their power, especially the entirely bullshit "100 mile radius of the border"
- chrischen 4y ago
  Businesses building the cost into the product also does nothing to address fraud. It just raises prices across the board due to fraud and consumers don’t even realize that’s the reason why.
- ruuda 4y ago
  > Ideally neither side should be favored and the process should be impartial and difficult to game. Dunno how to make such a system though, humans are a crafty bunch. There is the Exploding Nash Equilibrium [1]. Some related research is also linked from there. If you are fine with trusting a third party then you don't need the blockchain, and you can use an escrow service who mediates disputes. But my understanding from the article and the comments here is that credit card companies effectively fill this role, but they aren't neutral mediators. [1]: https://www.gwern.net/docs/bitcoin/nashx/index https://www.gwern.net/docs/bitcoin/nashx/index.
jsjohnst 4y ago
> And it means the buyer can't exploit the asymmetry of one button click (to get a refund unless the merchant deals with a mountain of bureaucracy) You’ve obviously never done a chargeback or are intentionally being hyperbolic and disingenuous. The “buy” part might be close to one click, but the chargeback process certainly isn’t for most (all?) US credit card companies.
fmajid 4y ago
I've had to deal with the AliExpress dispute resolution process. While it's slow, it's fair in my experience.

metadat 4y ago

Clearly you've never been arrested. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a fantasy in the USA, especially if you're a part of a minority group. 90-95% of cases settle with a plea bargain, because the punishment will be disproportionately severe if you lose the case. Regardless, any system which inherently favors businesses over individuals is wrong. Businesses have the option of building the known cost of fraud into the products, whereas individual customers can easily get screwed without any recourse. What good is a gift card if the store turns out to be a bad actor? Ideally neither side should be favored and the process should be impartial and difficult to game. Dunno how to make such a system though, humans are a crafty bunch. "Better a thousand guilty people go free than imprison an innocent."

notch656a 4y ago
Lol I'll do you one better. I've had DHS "not arrest" me but put me in a jail cell, booked and fingerprinted me, including transport by prison van, all while only "being detained." That's right, you can be jailed without even being arrested or accused of a crime.
- labster 4y ago
  Japanese police can detain suspects for up to 30 days before pressing charges… per crime. I remember reading about how long Carlos Ghosn was held because he had the temerity to not confess.
- JTbane 4y ago
  IMO both DHS and ICE are long overdue for some limitations of their power, especially the entirely bullshit "100 mile radius of the border"
chrischen 4y ago
Businesses building the cost into the product also does nothing to address fraud. It just raises prices across the board due to fraud and consumers don’t even realize that’s the reason why.
ruuda 4y ago
> Ideally neither side should be favored and the process should be impartial and difficult to game. Dunno how to make such a system though, humans are a crafty bunch. There is the Exploding Nash Equilibrium [1]. Some related research is also linked from there. If you are fine with trusting a third party then you don't need the blockchain, and you can use an escrow service who mediates disputes. But my understanding from the article and the comments here is that credit card companies effectively fill this role, but they aren't neutral mediators. [1]: https://www.gwern.net/docs/bitcoin/nashx/index https://www.gwern.net/docs/bitcoin/nashx/index.

jsjohnst 4y ago

> And it means the buyer can't exploit the asymmetry of one button click (to get a refund unless the merchant deals with a mountain of bureaucracy) You’ve obviously never done a chargeback or are intentionally being hyperbolic and disingenuous. The “buy” part might be close to one click, but the chargeback process certainly isn’t for most (all?) US credit card companies.

fmajid 4y ago

I've had to deal with the AliExpress dispute resolution process. While it's slow, it's fair in my experience.