4 ms·

This is a fantastically good article for people interested in online retail or in payments. I lost the url but there was another article I've been wanting to f

This is a fantastically good article for people interested in online retail or in payments. I lost the url but there was another article I've been wanting to find and link to, about how the US payment system is so completely screwed up. From a seller perspective, Alipay (used for everything in China) is much better than what we have here. They have an actual dispute resolution process before a transaction can be reversed, instead of reversing at the push of a button.

metadat 4y ago
What difference does it make if the reversal happens at the beginning or end? The process should account for this and see things through either way.
- throwaway81523 4y ago
  The US system purposely disfavors the merchant. Imagine being arrested and having to prove your innocence at trial, instead of the other way around. Alipay from what I understand tries to have a more neutral process. And it means the buyer can't exploit the asymmetry of one button click (to get a refund unless the merchant deals with a mountain of bureaucracy) vs dealing with the bureaucracy. It is better that if there is a disagreement, both have to deal with the bureaucracy.
  - metadat 4y ago
    Clearly you've never been arrested. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a fantasy in the USA, especially if you're a part of a minority group. 90-95% of cases settle with a plea bargain, because the punishment will be disproportionately severe if you lose the case. Regardless, any system which inherently favors businesses over individuals is wrong. Businesses have the option of building the known cost of fraud into the products, whereas individual customers can easily get screwed without any recourse. What good is a gift card if the store turns out to be a bad actor? Ideally neither side should be favored and the process should be impartial and difficult to game. Dunno how to make such a system though, humans are a crafty bunch. "Better a thousand guilty people go free than imprison an innocent."
    - notch656a 4y ago
      Lol I'll do you one better. I've had DHS "not arrest" me but put me in a jail cell, booked and fingerprinted me, including transport by prison van, all while only "being detained." That's right, you can be jailed without even being arrested or accused of a crime.
      - labster 4y ago
        Japanese police can detain suspects for up to 30 days before pressing charges… per crime. I remember reading about how long Carlos Ghosn was held because he had the temerity to not confess.
      - JTbane 4y ago
        IMO both DHS and ICE are long overdue for some limitations of their power, especially the entirely bullshit "100 mile radius of the border"
    - chrischen 4y ago
      Businesses building the cost into the product also does nothing to address fraud. It just raises prices across the board due to fraud and consumers don’t even realize that’s the reason why.
    - ruuda 4y ago
      > Ideally neither side should be favored and the process should be impartial and difficult to game. Dunno how to make such a system though, humans are a crafty bunch. There is the Exploding Nash Equilibrium [1]. Some related research is also linked from there. If you are fine with trusting a third party then you don't need the blockchain, and you can use an escrow service who mediates disputes. But my understanding from the article and the comments here is that credit card companies effectively fill this role, but they aren't neutral mediators. [1]: https://www.gwern.net/docs/bitcoin/nashx/index https://www.gwern.net/docs/bitcoin/nashx/index.
  - jsjohnst 4y ago
    > And it means the buyer can't exploit the asymmetry of one button click (to get a refund unless the merchant deals with a mountain of bureaucracy) You’ve obviously never done a chargeback or are intentionally being hyperbolic and disingenuous. The “buy” part might be close to one click, but the chargeback process certainly isn’t for most (all?) US credit card companies.
  - fmajid 4y ago
    I've had to deal with the AliExpress dispute resolution process. While it's slow, it's fair in my experience.
- notch656a 4y ago
  It's a good point. I had a scammer stole my credit card number. I reported the fraud and the bank instantly removed it, but the scammers just said I was lying and eventually got their money back. Bank backed the scammers and said I must be lying because the scammers produced a tracking number for some arbitrary package that went to my same zip code (but not my address). As a customer I found getting the charge reversed and then unreversed as not much different experience than the bank telling me to go fuck myself to begin with. It's actually laughably easy for the merchant to fight a chargeback by just providing any arbitrary tracking number to your zip code as full satisfactory proof they fulfilled their agreements. The writings of this article do not anywhere near match the reality I've seen with chargeback process and appeals process, which seam to heavily favor the merchant.
  - metadat 4y ago
    It depends heavily on the card company. Most of them are user-hostile scum, with Amex being the most cardholder friendly. I've still been screwed by AirBnB to the tune of $2k even when I used an Amex card. Caveat emptor (buyer beware), I'll never use AirBnB again, got totally ripped off by a creepy and deceptive house host in Pebble Beach who claimed we damaged his house, even though I'd taken pics of a lot of the oddities. Live and learn.
    - LionTamer 4y ago
      What happened?
  - blackoil 4y ago
    This could have been protected using OTP or some 2FA good online credit card payments. Little hastle but goes long way to protecting fraud like this.

metadat 4y ago

What difference does it make if the reversal happens at the beginning or end? The process should account for this and see things through either way.

throwaway81523 4y ago
The US system purposely disfavors the merchant. Imagine being arrested and having to prove your innocence at trial, instead of the other way around. Alipay from what I understand tries to have a more neutral process. And it means the buyer can't exploit the asymmetry of one button click (to get a refund unless the merchant deals with a mountain of bureaucracy) vs dealing with the bureaucracy. It is better that if there is a disagreement, both have to deal with the bureaucracy.
- metadat 4y ago
  Clearly you've never been arrested. "Innocent until proven guilty" is a fantasy in the USA, especially if you're a part of a minority group. 90-95% of cases settle with a plea bargain, because the punishment will be disproportionately severe if you lose the case. Regardless, any system which inherently favors businesses over individuals is wrong. Businesses have the option of building the known cost of fraud into the products, whereas individual customers can easily get screwed without any recourse. What good is a gift card if the store turns out to be a bad actor? Ideally neither side should be favored and the process should be impartial and difficult to game. Dunno how to make such a system though, humans are a crafty bunch. "Better a thousand guilty people go free than imprison an innocent."
  - notch656a 4y ago
    Lol I'll do you one better. I've had DHS "not arrest" me but put me in a jail cell, booked and fingerprinted me, including transport by prison van, all while only "being detained." That's right, you can be jailed without even being arrested or accused of a crime.
    - labster 4y ago
      Japanese police can detain suspects for up to 30 days before pressing charges… per crime. I remember reading about how long Carlos Ghosn was held because he had the temerity to not confess.
    - JTbane 4y ago
      IMO both DHS and ICE are long overdue for some limitations of their power, especially the entirely bullshit "100 mile radius of the border"
  - chrischen 4y ago
    Businesses building the cost into the product also does nothing to address fraud. It just raises prices across the board due to fraud and consumers don’t even realize that’s the reason why.
  - ruuda 4y ago
    > Ideally neither side should be favored and the process should be impartial and difficult to game. Dunno how to make such a system though, humans are a crafty bunch. There is the Exploding Nash Equilibrium [1]. Some related research is also linked from there. If you are fine with trusting a third party then you don't need the blockchain, and you can use an escrow service who mediates disputes. But my understanding from the article and the comments here is that credit card companies effectively fill this role, but they aren't neutral mediators. [1]: https://www.gwern.net/docs/bitcoin/nashx/index https://www.gwern.net/docs/bitcoin/nashx/index.
- jsjohnst 4y ago
  > And it means the buyer can't exploit the asymmetry of one button click (to get a refund unless the merchant deals with a mountain of bureaucracy) You’ve obviously never done a chargeback or are intentionally being hyperbolic and disingenuous. The “buy” part might be close to one click, but the chargeback process certainly isn’t for most (all?) US credit card companies.
- fmajid 4y ago
  I've had to deal with the AliExpress dispute resolution process. While it's slow, it's fair in my experience.
notch656a 4y ago
It's a good point. I had a scammer stole my credit card number. I reported the fraud and the bank instantly removed it, but the scammers just said I was lying and eventually got their money back. Bank backed the scammers and said I must be lying because the scammers produced a tracking number for some arbitrary package that went to my same zip code (but not my address). As a customer I found getting the charge reversed and then unreversed as not much different experience than the bank telling me to go fuck myself to begin with. It's actually laughably easy for the merchant to fight a chargeback by just providing any arbitrary tracking number to your zip code as full satisfactory proof they fulfilled their agreements. The writings of this article do not anywhere near match the reality I've seen with chargeback process and appeals process, which seam to heavily favor the merchant.
- metadat 4y ago
  It depends heavily on the card company. Most of them are user-hostile scum, with Amex being the most cardholder friendly. I've still been screwed by AirBnB to the tune of $2k even when I used an Amex card. Caveat emptor (buyer beware), I'll never use AirBnB again, got totally ripped off by a creepy and deceptive house host in Pebble Beach who claimed we damaged his house, even though I'd taken pics of a lot of the oddities. Live and learn.
  - LionTamer 4y ago
    What happened?
- blackoil 4y ago
  This could have been protected using OTP or some 2FA good online credit card payments. Little hastle but goes long way to protecting fraud like this.