4 ms·

I wonder if the lack of voices you notice is at all related to the well-publicized data indicating conservatives do not feel they can express their opinions pub

by onos 4y ago

I wonder if the lack of voices you notice is at all related to the well-publicized data indicating conservatives do not feel they can express their opinions publicly without risk of punishment.

mjmsmith 4y ago
It's a demonstrated fact that traditional conservatives are punished for expressing the opinion that Donald Trump is obscene and distasteful.
- jollybean 4y ago
  I think you and onos are not quite making the same point. Conservative voices are a bit suppressed in some places, like on Campus. Some don't like to accept that, but it's true. But it's a kind of Social Justice institutionalism that would be the issue there. Otherwise, 'classical conservatives' who voice their opinion against Trump, are also ostracized by that far right gang, which is very true. So that's a different kind of 'fear to speak up'. Liz Cheney is getting punted out of Office for that right now. But that has always existed - the centre/far elements of 'each side' definitely have wars. You can see it play out at the NYT editorial staff among the Social Justice left (younger) and the Traditional Liberal left (middle aged). I don't feel that Musk can be reasonably located anywhere in there.
  - antifa 4y ago
    >Conservative voices are a bit suppressed in some places, like on Campus. I think it's a bit misleading though. Who would goto college and listen to somebody repeat ad nauseum their parent's conservative talking points they've already heard their entire lifes? Or listen to someone even more radically conservative than their parents? Also a lot of those "suppressed" people were just openly bigoted and claiming to feel persecuted when they're not allowed to persecute people they don't like.
    - jollybean 4y ago
      Well you've proved my point for me. Your assumption that 'conservative' voices lack in legitimacy and are merely repetitious of their parents views, and worse, that they are trying to 'persecute' people is itself obviously bigoted, and gives us a crystal clear example of the problem. Even views such as 'people ought to be treated for who they are and not their intersecting identities' is oddly 'conservative' in 2022. Or 'Trans women are different than women' - some argue is a transphobic/conservative position. etc.
      - antifa 4y ago
        > Even views such as 'people ought to be treated for who they are and not their intersecting identities' is oddly 'conservative' in 2022. Claiming to do this while doing the opposite is a popular "conservative" position in 2022.
- ThunderSizzle 4y ago
  It's a demonstrated fact that traditional conservatives are punished for expressing anything that Leftists disagree with, which is everything because a conservative said it.
  - Infinity315 4y ago
    This is mostly true of social conservatism. No one is getting canceled for saying we should reduce taxes and spend less in government.
    - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
      Yes, they do. You want grandma to die? We need to spend 1 billion to Ukraine right now or else Grandma will die. You want to murder Grandma? You should lose your job over this. I can't believe you can't be a little generous and send something to the current political target of the month. You are too selfish to have a job. I've seen the logic train be that bad. Cancel culture has no end.
  - mjmsmith 4y ago
    It's a demonstrated fact that unhinged hyperbole isn't a demonstrated fact.
rsynnott 4y ago
I think they’re talking about people like John Major or John McCain; people with conservative views but at least a patina of decency, restraint, and respect for the rule of law. If Boris Johnson and his coterie can express their opinions publicly, Major types certainly can. It’s just not a winning proposition anymore; there’s not much market for “conservative who is reasonable”.
larkost 4y ago
I don't think you are getting this right. A example would be Senator Elizabeth Chaney. She has been actively shunned by conservatives because she is willing to tell the truth about the 2020 elections. So she is being publicly punished for not just opinions, but actual facts, by conservatives. I also disagree with the idea that conservatives are being punished for their opinions. Rather conservatives have been complaining that they are no longer allowed to punish other people for the way those people want to live their lives. A couple of examples: 1. The "Don't say gay" bill in Florida is not about people who were teaching about sex to young kids (there have been no actual accusations of this, only badly worded things that sounded like this). It is entirely about teachers teaching that it is ok that a child in their classroom has two dads or two moms. It is trying to wind back the clock to when those families would have to be kept "in the closet", or face social shunning. 2. In the recent case of the football coach who lost his job for leading prayers on the field after games. That one is again about the majority wanting to be able to use social power to push its religion. Despite what the majority of the Supreme Court said, he absolutely was using his position as a coach to push his religion. There was even testimony from a player who felt pressure to participate in order to get playing time.

by onos 4y ago

I wonder if the lack of voices you notice is at all related to the well-publicized data indicating conservatives do not feel they can express their opinions publicly without risk of punishment.

mjmsmith 4y ago

It's a demonstrated fact that traditional conservatives are punished for expressing the opinion that Donald Trump is obscene and distasteful.

jollybean 4y ago
I think you and onos are not quite making the same point. Conservative voices are a bit suppressed in some places, like on Campus. Some don't like to accept that, but it's true. But it's a kind of Social Justice institutionalism that would be the issue there. Otherwise, 'classical conservatives' who voice their opinion against Trump, are also ostracized by that far right gang, which is very true. So that's a different kind of 'fear to speak up'. Liz Cheney is getting punted out of Office for that right now. But that has always existed - the centre/far elements of 'each side' definitely have wars. You can see it play out at the NYT editorial staff among the Social Justice left (younger) and the Traditional Liberal left (middle aged). I don't feel that Musk can be reasonably located anywhere in there.
- antifa 4y ago
  >Conservative voices are a bit suppressed in some places, like on Campus. I think it's a bit misleading though. Who would goto college and listen to somebody repeat ad nauseum their parent's conservative talking points they've already heard their entire lifes? Or listen to someone even more radically conservative than their parents? Also a lot of those "suppressed" people were just openly bigoted and claiming to feel persecuted when they're not allowed to persecute people they don't like.
  - jollybean 4y ago
    Well you've proved my point for me. Your assumption that 'conservative' voices lack in legitimacy and are merely repetitious of their parents views, and worse, that they are trying to 'persecute' people is itself obviously bigoted, and gives us a crystal clear example of the problem. Even views such as 'people ought to be treated for who they are and not their intersecting identities' is oddly 'conservative' in 2022. Or 'Trans women are different than women' - some argue is a transphobic/conservative position. etc.
    - antifa 4y ago
      > Even views such as 'people ought to be treated for who they are and not their intersecting identities' is oddly 'conservative' in 2022. Claiming to do this while doing the opposite is a popular "conservative" position in 2022.
ThunderSizzle 4y ago
It's a demonstrated fact that traditional conservatives are punished for expressing anything that Leftists disagree with, which is everything because a conservative said it.
- Infinity315 4y ago
  This is mostly true of social conservatism. No one is getting canceled for saying we should reduce taxes and spend less in government.
  - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
    Yes, they do. You want grandma to die? We need to spend 1 billion to Ukraine right now or else Grandma will die. You want to murder Grandma? You should lose your job over this. I can't believe you can't be a little generous and send something to the current political target of the month. You are too selfish to have a job. I've seen the logic train be that bad. Cancel culture has no end.
- mjmsmith 4y ago
  It's a demonstrated fact that unhinged hyperbole isn't a demonstrated fact.

rsynnott 4y ago

I think they’re talking about people like John Major or John McCain; people with conservative views but at least a patina of decency, restraint, and respect for the rule of law. If Boris Johnson and his coterie can express their opinions publicly, Major types certainly can. It’s just not a winning proposition anymore; there’s not much market for “conservative who is reasonable”.

larkost 4y ago

I don't think you are getting this right. A example would be Senator Elizabeth Chaney. She has been actively shunned by conservatives because she is willing to tell the truth about the 2020 elections. So she is being publicly punished for not just opinions, but actual facts, by conservatives. I also disagree with the idea that conservatives are being punished for their opinions. Rather conservatives have been complaining that they are no longer allowed to punish other people for the way those people want to live their lives. A couple of examples: 1. The "Don't say gay" bill in Florida is not about people who were teaching about sex to young kids (there have been no actual accusations of this, only badly worded things that sounded like this). It is entirely about teachers teaching that it is ok that a child in their classroom has two dads or two moms. It is trying to wind back the clock to when those families would have to be kept "in the closet", or face social shunning. 2. In the recent case of the football coach who lost his job for leading prayers on the field after games. That one is again about the majority wanting to be able to use social power to push its religion. Despite what the majority of the Supreme Court said, he absolutely was using his position as a coach to push his religion. There was even testimony from a player who felt pressure to participate in order to get playing time.