4 ms·

It's not 'conservatives' as 1/2 of them loath that stuff - and 'agitation' is traditionally an artifact of leftist populism (with traditional conservatives usua

It's not 'conservatives' as 1/2 of them loath that stuff - and 'agitation' is traditionally an artifact of leftist populism (with traditional conservatives usually being small-c, establishment, older etc.) - it's more a bit of a businessy libertarianism, with hints of anti establishmentism that's in many ways more popular among the youth. Also, it's a hugely populist and international appeal, spreading his 'Noisy Tweets' around the globe. See how much more popular he is now that he makes 'controversial' statements [1] It's as PR trick as old as time. Edit: but yes, technically he has taken a public shift to the 'Current American Right' in the mysterious political situation we are in, that's fair to say. Just wanted to indicate it's a 'new and kind of specific normal'. [1] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=CA&q=%2Fm%2F03nzf1 https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=CA&q=%...

cycomanic 4y ago
I appreciate your analysis, but would like to add that I feel that "traditional conservatives" seem to have largely disappeared or become voiceless not only in the US but also in other places like e.g. the UK. I imagine in decades prior traditional conservatives would have found people like Trump or Boris Johnson obscene and distasteful. However, I don't see many of that old guard speak out against them. It seems with the reducing success projections due to changing demographics, many see winning as more important than values. Or at least that is my only explanation.
- netsharc 4y ago
  > many see winning as more important than values. Interesting thought. For some analogy, if a bunch of skinheads joined my local baseball team and started playing dirty against the other teams and became the champions, would I care that my team has been hijacked, or would I not care because now my team is winning? Obviously in the political example, the skinheads talk about "values" and people who want to be deluded just nod and repeat "values!", or they demonize the opponents by saying they'll bring in "dirty migrants", etc...
- onos 4y ago
  I wonder if the lack of voices you notice is at all related to the well-publicized data indicating conservatives do not feel they can express their opinions publicly without risk of punishment.
  - mjmsmith 4y ago
    It's a demonstrated fact that traditional conservatives are punished for expressing the opinion that Donald Trump is obscene and distasteful.
    - jollybean 4y ago
      I think you and onos are not quite making the same point. Conservative voices are a bit suppressed in some places, like on Campus. Some don't like to accept that, but it's true. But it's a kind of Social Justice institutionalism that would be the issue there. Otherwise, 'classical conservatives' who voice their opinion against Trump, are also ostracized by that far right gang, which is very true. So that's a different kind of 'fear to speak up'. Liz Cheney is getting punted out of Office for that right now. But that has always existed - the centre/far elements of 'each side' definitely have wars. You can see it play out at the NYT editorial staff among the Social Justice left (younger) and the Traditional Liberal left (middle aged). I don't feel that Musk can be reasonably located anywhere in there.
      - antifa 4y ago
        >Conservative voices are a bit suppressed in some places, like on Campus. I think it's a bit misleading though. Who would goto college and listen to somebody repeat ad nauseum their parent's conservative talking points they've already heard their entire lifes? Or listen to someone even more radically conservative than their parents? Also a lot of those "suppressed" people were just openly bigoted and claiming to feel persecuted when they're not allowed to persecute people they don't like.
        jollybean 4y ago
        Well you've proved my point for me. Your assumption that 'conservative' voices lack in legitimacy and are merely repetitious of their parents views, and worse, that they are trying to 'persecute' people is itself obviously bigoted, and gives us a crystal clear example of the problem. Even views such as 'people ought to be treated for who they are and not their intersecting identities' is oddly 'conservative' in 2022. Or 'Trans women are different than women' - some argue is a transphobic/conservative position. etc.
- jollybean 4y ago
  The 'old guard' is not populist and the least PR savvy. They are speaking out, just not making the rounds on the news. Note that as long as Trump had 'populist power' then Fox etc. would kind of following along supporting that. The Romneys, Cheneys, Bushes just didn't have the outlets. It's changed a bit as Murdoch has dumped Trump, but the current trend is definitely a bit populist as they are backing DeSantis, who is frankly probably more traditionally conservative, but playing the 'Noise Game'. Same thing in Canada with new conservative leadership. Note, young people are really, really pissed. Housing is completely unnafordable, they are in debt, inflation is taking off, and most of COVID wasn't a huge risk to them for 21 year olds it really was kind of 'a bad flu' it's really 40+ where the risk starts. So they are naturally going to be more emotively pissed off about all of that pain 'they endured' on behalf of others. In Canada, the likely new Conservative Candidate is taking a 'populist turn' and kind of supporting the 'anti mask wave' (I mean, it's not crazy up here, but still it's a movement) - but shockingly he's more popular among 18-35 year olds than the far left NDP which is traditionally where they are strong. Shockingly, the 'Establishment Liberals' are the #1 party among 45+ all the way past 75. This is an artifact that more clearly highlights what is going on everywhere, it's just not as clear. The 'geriotoocracy' in the West is a bit left on social issues, and pro 'big business' on others. The 'establishment' policies are hugely favouring stock owners, real estate owners, retirees, pensions etc. etc.. Paradoxically literally just today I'm reading 'Russian Telegram' and they are complaining about the opposite: Putin and a massive class of Neo-Soviet jerkoffs stealing decades of hope from young Russians. Young people have more opportunities than ever before, and have had a cushy upbringing for sure - that said - their challenges are very real and they have a right to be angry I see very desperate kinds of comments on Reddit these days, sad people who feel completely voiceless. In that context, a bit of populism is understandable. Musk is playing into that. Trump a little bit. WallStreetBets etc.. For some reason, it's not 'Bernie' this time around, it's a bit more 'Musky'. So I think that is a big part of the appeal, and specifically with Musk it's probably not fairly traditional values. Musk is also becoming a serious magnate, I mean, he was literally the richest guy in the world, and so the reality of people wanting to have 'higher taxes on the rich' surely grates on him, how long can he truly, culturally identify with the 'rebellious youth changing the world?'. He now has to 'get the goddam factories moving, this COVID stuff is overplayed!' and 'these greedy politicians want all my damn money, can't they see I'm changing the world?'. It's a bit of 'There Will Be Blood' going on. And he's pumping it all up on Twitter. I think we don't need to worry about Musk though, he just has a bit of an opinion, a bit of a big mouth, oh well.

cycomanic 4y ago

I appreciate your analysis, but would like to add that I feel that "traditional conservatives" seem to have largely disappeared or become voiceless not only in the US but also in other places like e.g. the UK. I imagine in decades prior traditional conservatives would have found people like Trump or Boris Johnson obscene and distasteful. However, I don't see many of that old guard speak out against them. It seems with the reducing success projections due to changing demographics, many see winning as more important than values. Or at least that is my only explanation.

netsharc 4y ago
> many see winning as more important than values. Interesting thought. For some analogy, if a bunch of skinheads joined my local baseball team and started playing dirty against the other teams and became the champions, would I care that my team has been hijacked, or would I not care because now my team is winning? Obviously in the political example, the skinheads talk about "values" and people who want to be deluded just nod and repeat "values!", or they demonize the opponents by saying they'll bring in "dirty migrants", etc...
onos 4y ago
I wonder if the lack of voices you notice is at all related to the well-publicized data indicating conservatives do not feel they can express their opinions publicly without risk of punishment.
- mjmsmith 4y ago
  It's a demonstrated fact that traditional conservatives are punished for expressing the opinion that Donald Trump is obscene and distasteful.
  - jollybean 4y ago
    I think you and onos are not quite making the same point. Conservative voices are a bit suppressed in some places, like on Campus. Some don't like to accept that, but it's true. But it's a kind of Social Justice institutionalism that would be the issue there. Otherwise, 'classical conservatives' who voice their opinion against Trump, are also ostracized by that far right gang, which is very true. So that's a different kind of 'fear to speak up'. Liz Cheney is getting punted out of Office for that right now. But that has always existed - the centre/far elements of 'each side' definitely have wars. You can see it play out at the NYT editorial staff among the Social Justice left (younger) and the Traditional Liberal left (middle aged). I don't feel that Musk can be reasonably located anywhere in there.
    - antifa 4y ago
      >Conservative voices are a bit suppressed in some places, like on Campus. I think it's a bit misleading though. Who would goto college and listen to somebody repeat ad nauseum their parent's conservative talking points they've already heard their entire lifes? Or listen to someone even more radically conservative than their parents? Also a lot of those "suppressed" people were just openly bigoted and claiming to feel persecuted when they're not allowed to persecute people they don't like.
      - jollybean 4y ago
        Well you've proved my point for me. Your assumption that 'conservative' voices lack in legitimacy and are merely repetitious of their parents views, and worse, that they are trying to 'persecute' people is itself obviously bigoted, and gives us a crystal clear example of the problem. Even views such as 'people ought to be treated for who they are and not their intersecting identities' is oddly 'conservative' in 2022. Or 'Trans women are different than women' - some argue is a transphobic/conservative position. etc.
jollybean 4y ago
The 'old guard' is not populist and the least PR savvy. They are speaking out, just not making the rounds on the news. Note that as long as Trump had 'populist power' then Fox etc. would kind of following along supporting that. The Romneys, Cheneys, Bushes just didn't have the outlets. It's changed a bit as Murdoch has dumped Trump, but the current trend is definitely a bit populist as they are backing DeSantis, who is frankly probably more traditionally conservative, but playing the 'Noise Game'. Same thing in Canada with new conservative leadership. Note, young people are really, really pissed. Housing is completely unnafordable, they are in debt, inflation is taking off, and most of COVID wasn't a huge risk to them for 21 year olds it really was kind of 'a bad flu' it's really 40+ where the risk starts. So they are naturally going to be more emotively pissed off about all of that pain 'they endured' on behalf of others. In Canada, the likely new Conservative Candidate is taking a 'populist turn' and kind of supporting the 'anti mask wave' (I mean, it's not crazy up here, but still it's a movement) - but shockingly he's more popular among 18-35 year olds than the far left NDP which is traditionally where they are strong. Shockingly, the 'Establishment Liberals' are the #1 party among 45+ all the way past 75. This is an artifact that more clearly highlights what is going on everywhere, it's just not as clear. The 'geriotoocracy' in the West is a bit left on social issues, and pro 'big business' on others. The 'establishment' policies are hugely favouring stock owners, real estate owners, retirees, pensions etc. etc.. Paradoxically literally just today I'm reading 'Russian Telegram' and they are complaining about the opposite: Putin and a massive class of Neo-Soviet jerkoffs stealing decades of hope from young Russians. Young people have more opportunities than ever before, and have had a cushy upbringing for sure - that said - their challenges are very real and they have a right to be angry I see very desperate kinds of comments on Reddit these days, sad people who feel completely voiceless. In that context, a bit of populism is understandable. Musk is playing into that. Trump a little bit. WallStreetBets etc.. For some reason, it's not 'Bernie' this time around, it's a bit more 'Musky'. So I think that is a big part of the appeal, and specifically with Musk it's probably not fairly traditional values. Musk is also becoming a serious magnate, I mean, he was literally the richest guy in the world, and so the reality of people wanting to have 'higher taxes on the rich' surely grates on him, how long can he truly, culturally identify with the 'rebellious youth changing the world?'. He now has to 'get the goddam factories moving, this COVID stuff is overplayed!' and 'these greedy politicians want all my damn money, can't they see I'm changing the world?'. It's a bit of 'There Will Be Blood' going on. And he's pumping it all up on Twitter. I think we don't need to worry about Musk though, he just has a bit of an opinion, a bit of a big mouth, oh well.