6 ms·

so, we create hell on earth for other people and when these people decide to leave the hell, we caringly, with all the good emotions in in the voice, say "pleas

so, we create hell on earth for other people and when these people decide to leave the hell, we caringly, with all the good emotions in in the voice, say "please don't do it". You must be kidding. How about just looking around and honestly answering simple question - whose hell today i'm part of ? One don't need to be an active or the most painful part, being just a part, a silent brick in the wall, is enough. And may be, if one has enough brains and courage, to refuse to be the part of the hell, just for one person, just for one day. And, yes, two decades ago during student years, 3 persons i personally knew very well made the decision, and i respect it. They made the biggest decision in their life, and i'd not disrespect it with "what if"s or "they should have reach for the help" or with any other trash like this...

Cushman 15y ago
Get out of here with that. Maybe there are circumstances, in times of horrible war or famine or terminal illness, where suicide is the necessary step to end suffering. Maybe that's hell; I wouldn't know. I hope not to. But I know depression. Depression feels like hell, but it's not. It's a treatable disease. Killing yourself to escape depression is like killing yourself to escape pneumonia instead of going to the hospital. You should not respect that decision. You should help that person to get better.
- VladRussian 15y ago
  what depression has to do with it? this is exactly kind of disrespect i was talking about. To immediately declare the person to be psychologically ill just because of our deepest fear of what may happen if we accept that ending your own life may be a rational well-thought off decision. It is easy to blame the person's imaginary illness instead of accepting responsibility that human society normally creates conditions when such a decision can be a rational well-thought off one.
  - Cushman 15y ago
    No. People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as a broken arm is "imaginary" just because you can't see anything wrong, are one of the very worst parts of human society. You are part of the reason, probably the main reason, life is so hard for the mentally ill. I really shouldn't have to explain this to you, as a great deal has been written on the subject in the past several decades. I beg of you, as a sometime depression sufferer, please go read up on this. Your ignorance hurts humanity. If you are not ignorant, but simply unwilling to educate yourself, then please take your insane ideology back to the Dark Ages where it belongs.
    - VladRussian 15y ago
      >People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as a broken arm is "imaginary" sorry, man, you've just produced non sequtuir as i never said that mental illnesses are "imaginary". I said that the statement - "if suicide then necessarily mental illness" - is false in my view. Such statement being false doesn't necessarily means that mental illnesses are imaginary nor that some suicides are result of real mental illnesses.
      - skore 15y ago
        You have started this discussion on the argument that "we create hell on earth for other people" which is about as unfounded as Cushman jumping to the conclusion that it was depression that caused this suicide, before the facts are in. As it stands, you both have about the same amount of rationality in your argument while Cushman certainly has the numbers on his side - Mental Illness certainly is the leading cause of suicide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Risk_factors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Risk_factors "Clinical studies have shown that underlying mental disorders are present in 87% to 98% of suicides" So I think Cushman is right - there is no use for your argument in this discussion and all that stands is a misunderstanding about your choice of words on "imaginary" (which I understood the same way that Cushman did - you clearly didn't choose your words wisely there and were bound to be misunderstood).
        15y ago
  - rdtsc 15y ago
    > human society normally creates conditions when such a decision can be a rational well-thought off one. So you are dismissing the idea that Ilya was depressed. Yet, claim that there was terrible suffering and hell going on. Ok, I don't know what was happening in this life, but I will just guess that it is highly unlikely that famine, torture, physical, sexual or moral abuse was taking place, at least the kind were most people would agree that suicide was an obvious rational choice. There is nothing shameful, imaginary, or about depression. Just like there is nothing shameful or imaginary about getting the flu.
    - VladRussian 15y ago
      >So you are dismissing the idea that Ilya was depressed. no, i'm dismissing the idea that suicide necessarily means a mental illness.
      - danssig 15y ago
        I'd say it pretty clearly does. If it were a rational decision with no mental illness involved, the person could realize they can just pull a real world "why_". Just disappear, go somewhere else, be someone else and start over where no one knows you. You're going to lose everyone and everything you know anyway, why do you need to actually kill yourself as well (and doing so isn't risk free)? If the person is rational then problems can only be one of two kinds: situational (e.g. my life sucks because I owe more money than I stand to earn in 3 lifetimes) and health-related. The rational stance to the first kind would be to do as I suggest above. Obviously, in the second case escaping won't change anything so suicide could be a rational choice.
        VladRussian 15y ago
        sounds like until a person thinks the way you prescribe as the "rational" one, the person is deemed mentally ill. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1341504/pdf/bmjcred00251-0003.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1341504/pdf/bmjc...
rdtsc 15y ago
It seems your reaction is also a not so uncommon. I think it is just a coping strategy. Anger and dismissal is common in such situations.
- VladRussian 15y ago
  of course it is a coping strategy. The adaptive nature of our brain means that we're always in the "coping strategy" to the previous experiences. Not analysing and not being affected by previous exprience wouldn't be a sign of a healthy brain.
PakG1 15y ago
If you can give details about those 3 and their reasons, perhaps you have a slight chance of convincing others that people have valid reasons for suicide other than depression. But EVERY case I've ever heard/seen (and maybe my sample is too small to be reflective of reality) points to depression as the leading and possibly only cause. There may have been root causes of that depression that were hell on earth, but the "but for" test still says depression was the direct cause of suicide in every case I've ever seen/read about/etc. While I don't know any personally, I know people who know others who had living hell (eg. rape by father, impregnated, abortion). Those people got support, were able to fight back, and regained their lives. What made them different from others was the depression factor, and it's easy to conclude that the support others gave to help them stand up again prevented depression from taking hold. You're making a very difficult-to-believe claim (for me for sure, and probably for others, given your downvotes) that depression had no factors in those 3 suicides, and an additional difficult-to-believe claim that it's not reasonable to conclude that depression is a leading factor in suicide in general. Some details would be appreciated if you're going to make such difficult-to-believe claims. edit: And if you would make the clarification again that you never claimed that depression wasn't a leading cause, just that it's not necessarily a factor, I don't see how that's a profitable statement. People have to make decisions and judgments all the time with incomplete information. Until the picture is 100% known here, it is logical to conclude what the numbers say: depression was a factor, if not the leading factor.
- partition 15y ago
  I say that "depression" along with "mental illness" are cop-out concepts used to shift the burden off society and onto the individual, by placing blame on some nebulous, bullshit entity. I believe that the "root causes" of depression are what actually deserve any attention, and they are a combination of genes, society, environment and psychology that has been ingrained by these factors. Depression is like smoke from a fire, and we're currently treating it by installing fans to blow the smoke away. This has been supported by research psychology about what makes a fulfilling life: a sense of autonomy, mastery, and relatedness. I guarantee you that someone missing even one of these will be "depressed." What do we say then? We don't think about how the environment he's living in is not encouraging these things, and we don't think about specific actions he can take to improve these factors. No, we just say "Depression!" and tell him to go the therapist. Most people in modern society have eaten this psychiatry bullshit whole and as a consequence are more fit to tend houseplants than to maintain even the shallowest of friends. So NO, what made the people who went through living hell different wasn't the fucking fake concept that is "depression", it was the SUPPORT. I say we don't ever talk about depression. The very existence of the word "depression" pushes real societal and individual shortcomings and responsibility off the table. We talk about what's going right and what's going wrong in the person's life, and if we don't have good advice on how to fix the things that are wrong, at least stop trying to grandstand and signal your social status with some useless platitudes and endlessly repeated refrains about the benefits of therapy and medication.
partition 15y ago
I completely agree with your general sentiment. I think everyone who is downvoting you has installed in themselves a despicable world-view: that professional psychiatric support along with medication is a necessary part of having a fulfilling life, for those of us who were unlucky enough to go through hell on earth. It's not getting real results in the real world, or having fulfilling relationships, no, these people are sub-human because of their mental illness, they have to sign up to see a _therapist_. As for all of you disagreers: No, don't support these people, or question how your actions day-to-day might affect the well-being of others! Fully buy into the notion of man as sociopathically selfish and live it to the hilt, as you were well trained to do by school (and startup culture).

Cushman 15y ago

Get out of here with that. Maybe there are circumstances, in times of horrible war or famine or terminal illness, where suicide is the necessary step to end suffering. Maybe that's hell; I wouldn't know. I hope not to. But I know depression. Depression feels like hell, but it's not. It's a treatable disease. Killing yourself to escape depression is like killing yourself to escape pneumonia instead of going to the hospital. You should not respect that decision. You should help that person to get better.

VladRussian 15y ago
what depression has to do with it? this is exactly kind of disrespect i was talking about. To immediately declare the person to be psychologically ill just because of our deepest fear of what may happen if we accept that ending your own life may be a rational well-thought off decision. It is easy to blame the person's imaginary illness instead of accepting responsibility that human society normally creates conditions when such a decision can be a rational well-thought off one.
- Cushman 15y ago
  No. People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as a broken arm is "imaginary" just because you can't see anything wrong, are one of the very worst parts of human society. You are part of the reason, probably the main reason, life is so hard for the mentally ill. I really shouldn't have to explain this to you, as a great deal has been written on the subject in the past several decades. I beg of you, as a sometime depression sufferer, please go read up on this. Your ignorance hurts humanity. If you are not ignorant, but simply unwilling to educate yourself, then please take your insane ideology back to the Dark Ages where it belongs.
  - VladRussian 15y ago
    >People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as a broken arm is "imaginary" sorry, man, you've just produced non sequtuir as i never said that mental illnesses are "imaginary". I said that the statement - "if suicide then necessarily mental illness" - is false in my view. Such statement being false doesn't necessarily means that mental illnesses are imaginary nor that some suicides are result of real mental illnesses.
    - skore 15y ago
      You have started this discussion on the argument that "we create hell on earth for other people" which is about as unfounded as Cushman jumping to the conclusion that it was depression that caused this suicide, before the facts are in. As it stands, you both have about the same amount of rationality in your argument while Cushman certainly has the numbers on his side - Mental Illness certainly is the leading cause of suicide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Risk_factors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Risk_factors "Clinical studies have shown that underlying mental disorders are present in 87% to 98% of suicides" So I think Cushman is right - there is no use for your argument in this discussion and all that stands is a misunderstanding about your choice of words on "imaginary" (which I understood the same way that Cushman did - you clearly didn't choose your words wisely there and were bound to be misunderstood).
      - 15y ago
- rdtsc 15y ago
  > human society normally creates conditions when such a decision can be a rational well-thought off one. So you are dismissing the idea that Ilya was depressed. Yet, claim that there was terrible suffering and hell going on. Ok, I don't know what was happening in this life, but I will just guess that it is highly unlikely that famine, torture, physical, sexual or moral abuse was taking place, at least the kind were most people would agree that suicide was an obvious rational choice. There is nothing shameful, imaginary, or about depression. Just like there is nothing shameful or imaginary about getting the flu.
  - VladRussian 15y ago
    >So you are dismissing the idea that Ilya was depressed. no, i'm dismissing the idea that suicide necessarily means a mental illness.
    - danssig 15y ago
      I'd say it pretty clearly does. If it were a rational decision with no mental illness involved, the person could realize they can just pull a real world "why_". Just disappear, go somewhere else, be someone else and start over where no one knows you. You're going to lose everyone and everything you know anyway, why do you need to actually kill yourself as well (and doing so isn't risk free)? If the person is rational then problems can only be one of two kinds: situational (e.g. my life sucks because I owe more money than I stand to earn in 3 lifetimes) and health-related. The rational stance to the first kind would be to do as I suggest above. Obviously, in the second case escaping won't change anything so suicide could be a rational choice.
      - VladRussian 15y ago
        sounds like until a person thinks the way you prescribe as the "rational" one, the person is deemed mentally ill. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1341504/pdf/bmjcred00251-0003.pdf http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1341504/pdf/bmjc...

rdtsc 15y ago

It seems your reaction is also a not so uncommon. I think it is just a coping strategy. Anger and dismissal is common in such situations.

VladRussian 15y ago
of course it is a coping strategy. The adaptive nature of our brain means that we're always in the "coping strategy" to the previous experiences. Not analysing and not being affected by previous exprience wouldn't be a sign of a healthy brain.

PakG1 15y ago

If you can give details about those 3 and their reasons, perhaps you have a slight chance of convincing others that people have valid reasons for suicide other than depression. But EVERY case I've ever heard/seen (and maybe my sample is too small to be reflective of reality) points to depression as the leading and possibly only cause. There may have been root causes of that depression that were hell on earth, but the "but for" test still says depression was the direct cause of suicide in every case I've ever seen/read about/etc. While I don't know any personally, I know people who know others who had living hell (eg. rape by father, impregnated, abortion). Those people got support, were able to fight back, and regained their lives. What made them different from others was the depression factor, and it's easy to conclude that the support others gave to help them stand up again prevented depression from taking hold. You're making a very difficult-to-believe claim (for me for sure, and probably for others, given your downvotes) that depression had no factors in those 3 suicides, and an additional difficult-to-believe claim that it's not reasonable to conclude that depression is a leading factor in suicide in general. Some details would be appreciated if you're going to make such difficult-to-believe claims. edit: And if you would make the clarification again that you never claimed that depression wasn't a leading cause, just that it's not necessarily a factor, I don't see how that's a profitable statement. People have to make decisions and judgments all the time with incomplete information. Until the picture is 100% known here, it is logical to conclude what the numbers say: depression was a factor, if not the leading factor.

partition 15y ago
I say that "depression" along with "mental illness" are cop-out concepts used to shift the burden off society and onto the individual, by placing blame on some nebulous, bullshit entity. I believe that the "root causes" of depression are what actually deserve any attention, and they are a combination of genes, society, environment and psychology that has been ingrained by these factors. Depression is like smoke from a fire, and we're currently treating it by installing fans to blow the smoke away. This has been supported by research psychology about what makes a fulfilling life: a sense of autonomy, mastery, and relatedness. I guarantee you that someone missing even one of these will be "depressed." What do we say then? We don't think about how the environment he's living in is not encouraging these things, and we don't think about specific actions he can take to improve these factors. No, we just say "Depression!" and tell him to go the therapist. Most people in modern society have eaten this psychiatry bullshit whole and as a consequence are more fit to tend houseplants than to maintain even the shallowest of friends. So NO, what made the people who went through living hell different wasn't the fucking fake concept that is "depression", it was the SUPPORT. I say we don't ever talk about depression. The very existence of the word "depression" pushes real societal and individual shortcomings and responsibility off the table. We talk about what's going right and what's going wrong in the person's life, and if we don't have good advice on how to fix the things that are wrong, at least stop trying to grandstand and signal your social status with some useless platitudes and endlessly repeated refrains about the benefits of therapy and medication.

partition 15y ago

I completely agree with your general sentiment. I think everyone who is downvoting you has installed in themselves a despicable world-view: that professional psychiatric support along with medication is a necessary part of having a fulfilling life, for those of us who were unlucky enough to go through hell on earth. It's not getting real results in the real world, or having fulfilling relationships, no, these people are sub-human because of their mental illness, they have to sign up to see a _therapist_. As for all of you disagreers: No, don't support these people, or question how your actions day-to-day might affect the well-being of others! Fully buy into the notion of man as sociopathically selfish and live it to the hilt, as you were well trained to do by school (and startup culture).