5 ms·

Given his track record, and the actual meat of this suit, I think he has a good chance. - He is an expert in the domain - He made a lawful request - He belie

by aliqot 4y ago

Given his track record, and the actual meat of this suit, I think he has a good chance. - He is an expert in the domain - He made a lawful request - He believes he's experiencing an obstruction of his rights I don't see anything egregious here. Being critical of your government is a protected right for USA. Everyone gets a moment to state their case if they'd like to make an accusation. Suing sounds offensive, but that is the official process for submitting an issue that a government can understand and address. I'm seeing some comments here that seem aghast at the audacity to accuse the government at your own peril, and it shows an ignorance of history.

maerF0x0 4y ago
I'd add * and it's been 20 yrs since the 9/11 attacks which predicated a lot of the more recent dragnets
- feet 4y ago
  I'll also add Which have not prevented anything and instead are used in parallel construction to go after Americans
  - gene91 4y ago
    I don’t like the collateral damages of many policies. But it’s not fair to say that the policies “have not prevented anything” because we simply don’t know. The policies could have stopped in-progress evil acts (but they were never revealed to the public for intel reasons) or prevented attempts of an evil acts (well, nothing happened, nothing to report).
    - feet 4y ago
      I find it rather funny that we know about the parallel construction which they attempt to keep hidden, yet don't know about any successful preventions. I would assume they would at least want people to know if a program was a success. To me, the lack of information speaks volumes This is on top of all the entrapment that we also know about, performed by the FBI and associated informants on Islamic/Muslim communities The purpose of a system is what it does
      - sweetbitter 4y ago
        Considering that they do not obey the law, if they had actually stopped any terrorists we would be hearing all about it from "anonymous leakers" by now.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - maerF0x0 4y ago
      It also could have stopped the Gods from smiting us all, but there's no evidence that it has. This article[1] is a good start at realizing the costs outweigh the benefits. There's little or no evidence of good caused, but plenty of evidence of harms caused. [1]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/06/top-5-claims-defenders-nsa-have-stop-making-remain-credible https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/06/top-5-claims-defenders...
      - daniel-cussen 4y ago
        There is evidence of that, in fact. There were many serious terrorist attacks in Europe, like in Spain's subway (300 dead) and Frankfurt, in the aftermath of 9/11 and other...uh howmy gonna say this...other stuff, the Spanish terrorist attacks were done by Basque nationalists or such, not Muslims. So there's your control group, Europe.
    - Quekid5 4y ago
      One cannot prove a negative, but given how much public recording of everything there is these days (and in the last decade+), I'd say it's safe to err on the side of them not having prevented much of consequence. ("Absence of evidence..." doesn't really apply when evidence should be ample for the phenomenon to be explained.)
    - colonwqbang 4y ago
      The bar for public policy should be set quite a bit higher than "it could have done some good at some point, maybe". In comic books, we read fanciful stories about the good guys saving the world in secret. But the real world doesn't really work like that. When the police seize some illegal drugs, what is the first thing they do? They snap a picture and publish it for society to see: https://www.google.com/search?q=police+seize+drugs&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=police+seize+drugs&tbm=isch because citizens want to see that their tax money is being used successfully. The same would likely be done by the surveillance authorities if they saw significant success in their mission.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  The dragnets existed before 9/11. That just gave justification for even more funding.
  - throwaway654329 4y ago
    Which programs do you mean specifically? We know the nature of the mass surveillance changed and expanded immensely after 9/11 in a major way, especially domestically.
    - KennyBlanken 4y ago
      Every piece of mail that passes through a high-speed sorting machine is scanned, front and back, OCR'd, and stored - as far as we know, indefinitely. That's how they deliver the "what's coming in your mailbox" images you can sign up to receive via email. Those images very often show the contents of the envelope clearly enough to recognize and even read the contents, which I'm quite positive isn't an accident. The USPS is literally reading and storing at least part of nearly every letter mailed in the United States. The USPS inspectors have a long history of being used as a morality enforcement agency, so yes, this should be of concern.
      - greyface- 4y ago
        Some more details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_Isolation_Control_and_Tracking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_Isolation_Control_and_Tra...
      - UpstandingUser 4y ago
        I've heard rumors that this was going on for a long time before it's been publicly acknowledged to have -- before OCR should have been able to handle that sort of variety of handwriting (reliably), let alone at scale. Like a snail-mail version of the NSA metadata collection program.
        nuclearnice1 4y ago
newsclues 4y ago
Trump Card: National Security
- CaliforniaKarl 4y ago
  That's a valid reason (specifically, 1.4(g) listed at https://www.archives.gov/declassification/iscap/redaction-codes.html https://www.archives.gov/declassification/iscap/redaction-co...). And while the NIST returning such a response is possible, it goes against the commitment to transparency. But still, that requires a response, and there hasn't been one.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- Kubuxu 4y ago
  "National Security" response implies cooperation with NSA and destroys NIST's credibility.
trasz 4y ago
>Being critical of your government is a protected right for USA. Everyone gets a moment to state their case if they'd like to make an accusation. Unless a kangaroo “FISA court” says you can’t - in which case you’re screwed, and can’t even tell anyone about the “sentence” if it included a gag order. Still better than getting droned I suppose.

by aliqot 4y ago

maerF0x0 4y ago

I'd add * and it's been 20 yrs since the 9/11 attacks which predicated a lot of the more recent dragnets

feet 4y ago
I'll also add Which have not prevented anything and instead are used in parallel construction to go after Americans
- gene91 4y ago
  I don’t like the collateral damages of many policies. But it’s not fair to say that the policies “have not prevented anything” because we simply don’t know. The policies could have stopped in-progress evil acts (but they were never revealed to the public for intel reasons) or prevented attempts of an evil acts (well, nothing happened, nothing to report).
  - feet 4y ago
    I find it rather funny that we know about the parallel construction which they attempt to keep hidden, yet don't know about any successful preventions. I would assume they would at least want people to know if a program was a success. To me, the lack of information speaks volumes This is on top of all the entrapment that we also know about, performed by the FBI and associated informants on Islamic/Muslim communities The purpose of a system is what it does
    - sweetbitter 4y ago
      Considering that they do not obey the law, if they had actually stopped any terrorists we would be hearing all about it from "anonymous leakers" by now.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - maerF0x0 4y ago
    It also could have stopped the Gods from smiting us all, but there's no evidence that it has. This article[1] is a good start at realizing the costs outweigh the benefits. There's little or no evidence of good caused, but plenty of evidence of harms caused. [1]: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/06/top-5-claims-defenders-nsa-have-stop-making-remain-credible https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/06/top-5-claims-defenders...
    - daniel-cussen 4y ago
      There is evidence of that, in fact. There were many serious terrorist attacks in Europe, like in Spain's subway (300 dead) and Frankfurt, in the aftermath of 9/11 and other...uh howmy gonna say this...other stuff, the Spanish terrorist attacks were done by Basque nationalists or such, not Muslims. So there's your control group, Europe.
  - Quekid5 4y ago
    One cannot prove a negative, but given how much public recording of everything there is these days (and in the last decade+), I'd say it's safe to err on the side of them not having prevented much of consequence. ("Absence of evidence..." doesn't really apply when evidence should be ample for the phenomenon to be explained.)
  - colonwqbang 4y ago
    The bar for public policy should be set quite a bit higher than "it could have done some good at some point, maybe". In comic books, we read fanciful stories about the good guys saving the world in secret. But the real world doesn't really work like that. When the police seize some illegal drugs, what is the first thing they do? They snap a picture and publish it for society to see: https://www.google.com/search?q=police+seize+drugs&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=police+seize+drugs&tbm=isch because citizens want to see that their tax money is being used successfully. The same would likely be done by the surveillance authorities if they saw significant success in their mission.
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
The dragnets existed before 9/11. That just gave justification for even more funding.
- throwaway654329 4y ago
  Which programs do you mean specifically? We know the nature of the mass surveillance changed and expanded immensely after 9/11 in a major way, especially domestically.
  - KennyBlanken 4y ago
    Every piece of mail that passes through a high-speed sorting machine is scanned, front and back, OCR'd, and stored - as far as we know, indefinitely. That's how they deliver the "what's coming in your mailbox" images you can sign up to receive via email. Those images very often show the contents of the envelope clearly enough to recognize and even read the contents, which I'm quite positive isn't an accident. The USPS is literally reading and storing at least part of nearly every letter mailed in the United States. The USPS inspectors have a long history of being used as a morality enforcement agency, so yes, this should be of concern.
    - greyface- 4y ago
      Some more details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_Isolation_Control_and_Tracking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mail_Isolation_Control_and_Tra...
    - UpstandingUser 4y ago
      I've heard rumors that this was going on for a long time before it's been publicly acknowledged to have -- before OCR should have been able to handle that sort of variety of handwriting (reliably), let alone at scale. Like a snail-mail version of the NSA metadata collection program.
      - nuclearnice1 4y ago

newsclues 4y ago

Trump Card: National Security

CaliforniaKarl 4y ago
That's a valid reason (specifically, 1.4(g) listed at https://www.archives.gov/declassification/iscap/redaction-codes.html https://www.archives.gov/declassification/iscap/redaction-co...). And while the NIST returning such a response is possible, it goes against the commitment to transparency. But still, that requires a response, and there hasn't been one.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
Kubuxu 4y ago
"National Security" response implies cooperation with NSA and destroys NIST's credibility.

trasz 4y ago

>Being critical of your government is a protected right for USA. Everyone gets a moment to state their case if they'd like to make an accusation. Unless a kangaroo “FISA court” says you can’t - in which case you’re screwed, and can’t even tell anyone about the “sentence” if it included a gag order. Still better than getting droned I suppose.