6 ms·

There's some nuance here. We have free speech in the US. Freedom means choice, so there's still an obligation to act morally. China is more than willing to man

There's some nuance here. We have free speech in the US. Freedom means choice, so there's still an obligation to act morally. China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that. For instance, see how China manipulated the NBA and Activision Blizzard during the Hong Kong protests.

kshacker 4y ago
As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? We make decisions to curtail free speech everyday so how's this different?
- spookthesunset 4y ago
  I’m sure they could and I bet some do. How that maps into sales is a different story.
- vladvasiliu 4y ago
  I'm not American, so I may be missing some details, but is that actually not allowed? Or is it rather the case that some people may not like that, so companies try to avoid upsetting some customers?
  - garettmd 4y ago
    Yes, that is totally allowed. It is trivial to find products with the confederate flag printed on them.
  - kshacker 4y ago
    As others said, it may be allowed, and I did not know either ways but it was a rhetorical point. Now even if it is allowed, suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Once that happens, it can be easily demagogued.
    - reaperducer 4y ago
      suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Actually, probably. If the item meets the specs and the price, that's what matters. Just as there is no shortage of federal buildings, and even military installations named after Confederate things. This HN discussion illustrates how bringing up Confederate themes, you can really tell when someone isn't an American.
      - mwint 4y ago
        I’m an American, but not involved in any kind of federal purchasing. I would have assumed that a federal purchaser would make up a reason not to buy my otherwise-perfect product if it had some unpopular statement on it, like a Confederate flag. Do you know of any counter examples where a company was able to make a successful bid with a product that had good fit, but an inconvenient non-functional addon like that?
  - bee_rider 4y ago
    Yes, we can put whatever odious symbols on our products. The Confederate flag is a bit weird because there's enough of the population that apparently doesn't see it that way, so some stores will even display products that have it. (Personally I find it to be an awful symbol and wouldn't stick around if I saw it displayed). An example that is more like what you've described is something like a Nazi swastika -- technically you can sell something with a swastika on it (I'm 99.9% sure) but almost no stores would be willing to put it on the shelves, certainly no major chains or whatever.
    - ChoGGi 4y ago
      At least on eBay there's a lot of Nazi memorabilia for sale.
  - Ancapistani 4y ago
    It is allowed, and some companies have based their business around it. For that matter, I've received written correspondence from people while doing genealogical research with the return address listed as "Mobile, Alabama, Occupied CSA". There are definitely cultural norms that come into play here, but in that particular case - it was from an officer of a chapter of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and contained photocopies of Confederate military records - I was amused by it. I kept the envelope and included it in my own archives.
- horsawlarway 4y ago
  > As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? Yes. Yes they can.
Aunche 4y ago
> China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that. No we don't. China may act peeved that foreign companies are virtue signalling, but they'd secretly relish at the opportunity of finding an excuse to boycott or ban these foreign products, so that their wealth stays circulating in their domestic economy. Look at what happened to Nike and H&M after they voiced concerns about Xinjiang. The CPC organized consumer boycotts of these companies, but happily allowed factories to continue to sell their goods to sell to them. China itself recognizes that it only makes sense to virtue signal when it is economical to do so. The NBA and Blizzard made the correct decision to kowtow to China, economically as well as morally. Getting them kicked out of China does not help Hong Kong, but would threaten to free world as the balance of trade would make us even more beholden to China. In a complicated, globalized world, marginal thinking is the only option.
- pphysch 4y ago
  > Look at what happened to Nike and H&M after they voiced concerns about Xinjiang. A global company that wastes resources engaging in hysterically overblown State Department propaganda is a company that compromises the credibility of its leadership to make intelligent strategic decisions. We're out of the unipolar era, and companies that are stuck it in it will get outpaced.
  - cromwellian 4y ago
    I think Google proved you can live and thrive without the China domestic market.
    - pphysch 4y ago
      Google doesn't have any full-spectrum peer competitors, much less any that are operating in both PRC and USA.
      - cromwellian 4y ago
        Apple didn't either (for premium smartphones) until, arguably, basing their manufacturing there helped standup a large infrastructure that could easily be turned around to make Huawei, Xiaomi, and other devices. If Apple had somehow managed to make iPhones in Vietnam instead of Shenzhen, would they really be facing the premium tier competition from Huawei they face in the EU?
trasz 4y ago
>China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money Compared to a country where companies literally buy congressman, and freely manipulate public opinion for the highest bidder?
- cromwellian 4y ago
  But competing messages are allowed so while the rich manipulate public opinion, they are not unitary and other voices are still heard, wealthy battling wealthy and large social movements too. These false equivalence’s are really tiring. China’s control of public speech and media is on a wholly different plane. It’s not even remotely comparable to manipulation in the West.
  - trasz 4y ago
    So how’s China different here? Or do you really believe there are no conflicting opinions there? I mean, some people believe there are no public elections in China, so…
    - cromwellian 4y ago
      Are we really doing this? Are you really serious? Besides the fact that most of the country is firewalled off from foreign media, and besides the fact that only one political party is allowed, and besides the fact that political prisoners are routinely jailed for nothing more than denying a government narrative, holding mock polls, publishing or assembling (and I don't mean held for a day or two like in the West, but jailed for years) Can a US citizen go on media, or organize a public protest, in which they call Joe Biden or Donald Trump, bad people, with bad policies? Yes, US citizens can publicly call for the highest level politicians in the land to lose their jobs, and with no real repercussions. People on social media can scream "Let's Go Brandon" or meme like crazy about Biden. But Weibo, Wechat, Bilibili, Douyin, frequently censor even the most milquetoast sarcastic remarks about the CCP or Xi, including the infamous Baozi and Panda blocks. Can a famous Chinese public individual/celebrity/intellectual, in China, tell a huge crowd and media, that I think the CCP are horrible and that Xi Jinping needs to be booted from power? Stop trying to draw false equivalencies. > I mean, some people believe there are no public elections in China, so… Sure, where the CCP select and approve the candidates, control the election progress, and there is no free media coverage or transparency free of state control. Practically no real international election monitors. And no direct nationwide elections. Rather, a many levels of indirection process, effectively controlled by a President for life. Let's see what happens at Beidaihe and the 20th national congress in November. Think anything will change? I don't. There's practical no competing, transparent system in these so called 'democratic elections' making them in effort, a Potemkin village with the veneer of popular will, but in fact, nothing of the sort. There are about 50 individuals in the US congress worth more than $10 million, and not a single one who is a billionaire. Trump was the only billionaire to have office. Meanwhile, there are 100+ CCP members in the Congress who are billionaires. Does this look like a system chosen by public debate, awareness, and discussion? For all of the flaws in the Western systems, and there are a vast number, it is really tiring seeing tankies try to say "everything's the same" with zero nuance, as if none of it matters.

kshacker 4y ago

As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? We make decisions to curtail free speech everyday so how's this different?

spookthesunset 4y ago
I’m sure they could and I bet some do. How that maps into sales is a different story.
vladvasiliu 4y ago
I'm not American, so I may be missing some details, but is that actually not allowed? Or is it rather the case that some people may not like that, so companies try to avoid upsetting some customers?
- garettmd 4y ago
  Yes, that is totally allowed. It is trivial to find products with the confederate flag printed on them.
- kshacker 4y ago
  As others said, it may be allowed, and I did not know either ways but it was a rhetorical point. Now even if it is allowed, suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Once that happens, it can be easily demagogued.
  - reaperducer 4y ago
    suppose this was a Federal government procurement. Will Feds buy something with such flags? Nope. Actually, probably. If the item meets the specs and the price, that's what matters. Just as there is no shortage of federal buildings, and even military installations named after Confederate things. This HN discussion illustrates how bringing up Confederate themes, you can really tell when someone isn't an American.
    - mwint 4y ago
      I’m an American, but not involved in any kind of federal purchasing. I would have assumed that a federal purchaser would make up a reason not to buy my otherwise-perfect product if it had some unpopular statement on it, like a Confederate flag. Do you know of any counter examples where a company was able to make a successful bid with a product that had good fit, but an inconvenient non-functional addon like that?
- bee_rider 4y ago
  Yes, we can put whatever odious symbols on our products. The Confederate flag is a bit weird because there's enough of the population that apparently doesn't see it that way, so some stores will even display products that have it. (Personally I find it to be an awful symbol and wouldn't stick around if I saw it displayed). An example that is more like what you've described is something like a Nazi swastika -- technically you can sell something with a swastika on it (I'm 99.9% sure) but almost no stores would be willing to put it on the shelves, certainly no major chains or whatever.
  - ChoGGi 4y ago
    At least on eBay there's a lot of Nazi memorabilia for sale.
- Ancapistani 4y ago
  It is allowed, and some companies have based their business around it. For that matter, I've received written correspondence from people while doing genealogical research with the return address listed as "Mobile, Alabama, Occupied CSA". There are definitely cultural norms that come into play here, but in that particular case - it was from an officer of a chapter of the Sons of Confederate Veterans and contained photocopies of Confederate military records - I was amused by it. I kept the envelope and included it in my own archives.
horsawlarway 4y ago
> As part of free speech, can a company from somewhere in south send out parts in boxes with confederate flag on the box? Yes. Yes they can.

Aunche 4y ago

> China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money, so we need some kind of cultural counter to that. No we don't. China may act peeved that foreign companies are virtue signalling, but they'd secretly relish at the opportunity of finding an excuse to boycott or ban these foreign products, so that their wealth stays circulating in their domestic economy. Look at what happened to Nike and H&M after they voiced concerns about Xinjiang. The CPC organized consumer boycotts of these companies, but happily allowed factories to continue to sell their goods to sell to them. China itself recognizes that it only makes sense to virtue signal when it is economical to do so. The NBA and Blizzard made the correct decision to kowtow to China, economically as well as morally. Getting them kicked out of China does not help Hong Kong, but would threaten to free world as the balance of trade would make us even more beholden to China. In a complicated, globalized world, marginal thinking is the only option.

pphysch 4y ago
> Look at what happened to Nike and H&M after they voiced concerns about Xinjiang. A global company that wastes resources engaging in hysterically overblown State Department propaganda is a company that compromises the credibility of its leadership to make intelligent strategic decisions. We're out of the unipolar era, and companies that are stuck it in it will get outpaced.
- cromwellian 4y ago
  I think Google proved you can live and thrive without the China domestic market.
  - pphysch 4y ago
    Google doesn't have any full-spectrum peer competitors, much less any that are operating in both PRC and USA.
    - cromwellian 4y ago
      Apple didn't either (for premium smartphones) until, arguably, basing their manufacturing there helped standup a large infrastructure that could easily be turned around to make Huawei, Xiaomi, and other devices. If Apple had somehow managed to make iPhones in Vietnam instead of Shenzhen, would they really be facing the premium tier competition from Huawei they face in the EU?

trasz 4y ago

>China is more than willing to manipulate cultural messages with money Compared to a country where companies literally buy congressman, and freely manipulate public opinion for the highest bidder?

cromwellian 4y ago
But competing messages are allowed so while the rich manipulate public opinion, they are not unitary and other voices are still heard, wealthy battling wealthy and large social movements too. These false equivalence’s are really tiring. China’s control of public speech and media is on a wholly different plane. It’s not even remotely comparable to manipulation in the West.
- trasz 4y ago
  So how’s China different here? Or do you really believe there are no conflicting opinions there? I mean, some people believe there are no public elections in China, so…
  - cromwellian 4y ago
    Are we really doing this? Are you really serious? Besides the fact that most of the country is firewalled off from foreign media, and besides the fact that only one political party is allowed, and besides the fact that political prisoners are routinely jailed for nothing more than denying a government narrative, holding mock polls, publishing or assembling (and I don't mean held for a day or two like in the West, but jailed for years) Can a US citizen go on media, or organize a public protest, in which they call Joe Biden or Donald Trump, bad people, with bad policies? Yes, US citizens can publicly call for the highest level politicians in the land to lose their jobs, and with no real repercussions. People on social media can scream "Let's Go Brandon" or meme like crazy about Biden. But Weibo, Wechat, Bilibili, Douyin, frequently censor even the most milquetoast sarcastic remarks about the CCP or Xi, including the infamous Baozi and Panda blocks. Can a famous Chinese public individual/celebrity/intellectual, in China, tell a huge crowd and media, that I think the CCP are horrible and that Xi Jinping needs to be booted from power? Stop trying to draw false equivalencies. > I mean, some people believe there are no public elections in China, so… Sure, where the CCP select and approve the candidates, control the election progress, and there is no free media coverage or transparency free of state control. Practically no real international election monitors. And no direct nationwide elections. Rather, a many levels of indirection process, effectively controlled by a President for life. Let's see what happens at Beidaihe and the 20th national congress in November. Think anything will change? I don't. There's practical no competing, transparent system in these so called 'democratic elections' making them in effort, a Potemkin village with the veneer of popular will, but in fact, nothing of the sort. There are about 50 individuals in the US congress worth more than $10 million, and not a single one who is a billionaire. Trump was the only billionaire to have office. Meanwhile, there are 100+ CCP members in the Congress who are billionaires. Does this look like a system chosen by public debate, awareness, and discussion? For all of the flaws in the Western systems, and there are a vast number, it is really tiring seeing tankies try to say "everything's the same" with zero nuance, as if none of it matters.