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I'm less worried about what a Chinese surveillance device will do in my house than an Amazon one. Only the latter has the ability and history of turning over da

I'm less worried about what a Chinese surveillance device will do in my house than an Amazon one. Only the latter has the ability and history of turning over data to those who can arrest me.

toss1 4y ago
A bit of a nit to clarify: It seems your actual complaint is that if US Law Enforcement decides you are a target of interest, they would think to go to Amazon and Amazon's reputation is that they'd cooperate in handing over data, whereas the LE officers would neither bother to ask, nor expect cooperation from the Chinese companies. The Chinese (or anyone) can certainly turn over their data to people who can arrest you, if they decide you are a target.
- chrischen 4y ago
  Chinese companies operating in the US still have to abide by US laws, so they are under the same jurisdiction that compels Amazon to turn over data to law enforcement. If Chinese companies don't comply, they get kicked out of the market.
  - toss1 4y ago
    True, I was thinking only of the Chinese main companies, not their US subsidiaries. So, yes, there really is no advantage there.
jvanderbot 4y ago
Well, that is a fair point. Each person has their own threat model. I work in tech, often adjacent or on national projects or highly sensitive R&D. We have regular counter-espionage training. You are concerned about domestic law enforcement learning about you. Both are valid threat models.
- jvanderbot 4y ago
  As an editorial, I support almost everything EFF and related orgs do, precisely to reduce the fear of US spying that makes China look like a better option (What a state of affairs!)
- mc32 4y ago
  One concern people should have about foreign tech spying on them is the possibility it undermines the stability of their jobs. Let’s say it exfiltrates data that eventually allows a foreign competitor to build sophisticated metallurgy for turbines. It’s not like all foreign countries eagerly hire foreign talent, moreover it puts domestic expertise at risk as well as all the collateral subcontractors and suppliers… so, yeah, super metallurgy-guy's job may be secure (can get hired by the foreign competitor), even if the company collapses but not the jobs of 10,000s who work for suppliers, etc.
Teever 4y ago
China could easily turn that data over to American law enforcement if they wanted to see a person they considered a threat to them arrested but that person was outside of their jurisdiction. China and Amazon are both threats to privacy.
- celdon25 4y ago
  Are there known examples of this happening?
  - bigcat12345678 4y ago
    It has not happened, does not mean that it could not happen. Chinese companies are automatically more cooperative than us companies because they are trained to cooperate in their home country already. But so far I suppose the indigenous big tech spying apparatus has been effective enough to not need foreign operators help.
friedman23 4y ago
The former will just blackmail you.
- buran77 4y ago
  The bar for China successfully leveraging some damaging information on a US citizen in the US is pretty high. Meaning they have to have something very damning against a person in a position of interest. Not impossible but narrow. The bar for leveraging general information about a regular US citizen in the US by a company like Amazon or the US government is very, very low. One thing I see happening really soon (if not already) is such data being used by medical insurers to algorithmically decide your coverage and rates. Or for authorities to use to establish whatever pattern they want that can be damning even if circumstantial. Looking around, all of this already happens in the US even without the help of an extra massive data collection net. From companies like Google or PayPal algorithmically locking you out of your critical digital identity, your paid services, your money with simply a boilerplate "sorry not sorry, don't let the door hit you on your way out", to authorities stealing all your neighbors' smart doorbell recordings to see what you have been doing and Stingraying the hell out of everyone on the off chance that they're going to catch the person they're looking for. Anything that makes that easier or opens up more avenues to do more of that is definitely going to be used (and abused) as such.
yumraj 4y ago
But the former is acquiring information that may lead to them blackmailing you and/or your loved ones into spying against your nation, which may lead to more than just an arrest.
- jkestner 4y ago
  You're comparing a threat that sounds cool and scary and is practically non-existent to a mundane abuse of privacy that happens every day.
  - yumraj 4y ago
    Why does it have to be either? My comment was merely about leak of data to China. Whether it is non-existent or not is something I'd rather not find out. It is after all a personal decision and to each their own.

I'm less worried about what a Chinese surveillance device will do in my house than an Amazon one. Only the latter has the ability and history of turning over data to those who can arrest me.

toss1 4y ago

A bit of a nit to clarify: It seems your actual complaint is that if US Law Enforcement decides you are a target of interest, they would think to go to Amazon and Amazon's reputation is that they'd cooperate in handing over data, whereas the LE officers would neither bother to ask, nor expect cooperation from the Chinese companies. The Chinese (or anyone) can certainly turn over their data to people who can arrest you, if they decide you are a target.

chrischen 4y ago
Chinese companies operating in the US still have to abide by US laws, so they are under the same jurisdiction that compels Amazon to turn over data to law enforcement. If Chinese companies don't comply, they get kicked out of the market.
- toss1 4y ago
  True, I was thinking only of the Chinese main companies, not their US subsidiaries. So, yes, there really is no advantage there.

jvanderbot 4y ago

Well, that is a fair point. Each person has their own threat model. I work in tech, often adjacent or on national projects or highly sensitive R&D. We have regular counter-espionage training. You are concerned about domestic law enforcement learning about you. Both are valid threat models.

jvanderbot 4y ago
As an editorial, I support almost everything EFF and related orgs do, precisely to reduce the fear of US spying that makes China look like a better option (What a state of affairs!)
mc32 4y ago
One concern people should have about foreign tech spying on them is the possibility it undermines the stability of their jobs. Let’s say it exfiltrates data that eventually allows a foreign competitor to build sophisticated metallurgy for turbines. It’s not like all foreign countries eagerly hire foreign talent, moreover it puts domestic expertise at risk as well as all the collateral subcontractors and suppliers… so, yeah, super metallurgy-guy's job may be secure (can get hired by the foreign competitor), even if the company collapses but not the jobs of 10,000s who work for suppliers, etc.

Teever 4y ago

China could easily turn that data over to American law enforcement if they wanted to see a person they considered a threat to them arrested but that person was outside of their jurisdiction. China and Amazon are both threats to privacy.

celdon25 4y ago
Are there known examples of this happening?
- bigcat12345678 4y ago
  It has not happened, does not mean that it could not happen. Chinese companies are automatically more cooperative than us companies because they are trained to cooperate in their home country already. But so far I suppose the indigenous big tech spying apparatus has been effective enough to not need foreign operators help.

friedman23 4y ago

The former will just blackmail you.

buran77 4y ago
The bar for China successfully leveraging some damaging information on a US citizen in the US is pretty high. Meaning they have to have something very damning against a person in a position of interest. Not impossible but narrow. The bar for leveraging general information about a regular US citizen in the US by a company like Amazon or the US government is very, very low. One thing I see happening really soon (if not already) is such data being used by medical insurers to algorithmically decide your coverage and rates. Or for authorities to use to establish whatever pattern they want that can be damning even if circumstantial. Looking around, all of this already happens in the US even without the help of an extra massive data collection net. From companies like Google or PayPal algorithmically locking you out of your critical digital identity, your paid services, your money with simply a boilerplate "sorry not sorry, don't let the door hit you on your way out", to authorities stealing all your neighbors' smart doorbell recordings to see what you have been doing and Stingraying the hell out of everyone on the off chance that they're going to catch the person they're looking for. Anything that makes that easier or opens up more avenues to do more of that is definitely going to be used (and abused) as such.

yumraj 4y ago

But the former is acquiring information that may lead to them blackmailing you and/or your loved ones into spying against your nation, which may lead to more than just an arrest.

jkestner 4y ago
You're comparing a threat that sounds cool and scary and is practically non-existent to a mundane abuse of privacy that happens every day.
- yumraj 4y ago
  Why does it have to be either? My comment was merely about leak of data to China. Whether it is non-existent or not is something I'd rather not find out. It is after all a personal decision and to each their own.