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This whole thing makes me feel terrible. I didn't know Ilya well, but I did know him. I wish I had known that he was in a bad situation personally that led to

by tibbon 15y ago

This whole thing makes me feel terrible. I didn't know Ilya well, but I did know him. I wish I had known that he was in a bad situation personally that led to this. I wish I could have helped. My last trip to SF in September was really busy and I didn't get to hang out with him. He even offerred me his couch to crash on, but I didn't take him up on the offer. We meant to do some pair programming back in July, but things got busy and I didn't followup on the invitation. He invited me to an awesome party in April, but I didn't end up going as I'd needed to fly from Ohio there, but I can't help wishing that I'd done it anyway. So I just feel terrible frankly that I mistakenly turned down interacting with him. Would have we had some conversation that would have changed his opinion on things? Given him some new hope? Clearly, I know this isn't anyone's fault, but in retrospect its hard not to wish that anyone was able to do more. I suppose the only thing to do in the future is to always prioritize time with people as the #1 thing. In retrospect, nothing else I could have been doing was more important.

mortenjorck 15y ago
So I just feel terrible frankly that I mistakenly turned down interacting with him. Would have we had some conversation that would have changed his opinion on things? Given him some new hope? This is a very human reaction, but please don't let yourself get hung up on this line of thinking. Heroic intervention is something we tend to overestimate. What you can do is to be there for the people you know well. When someone's hurting, be generous with your time; be someone they can turn to. If you ever think someone's at risk, know what to look for and know where to turn.
- maeon3 15y ago
  I disagree, suicide is selected into the genome to get useless parts to self destruct. Like how skin cells have to shift around to service the whole. He was reaching out to everywhere he could looking for validation and found none. Mixed with a stiff upper lip and a lack of desire to show weakness is a recipe for a feedback loop of perceived irrelevance. When all around you use actions to indicate that you are a burden, not an asset. Freeing up resources is good for the hive. he loved the collective, too much. Your no's were part of the feedback loop, you couldnt have known the magnitude of what was happening, but your actions are part of his decision. Healing from this will take honesty, you can delude others but not yourself. You are a part of it, but it wasn't your responsibility.
  - buss 15y ago
    Ugh, do not listen to opinions like this. You show a fundamental ignorance of human psychology and the effects of depression on an otherwise healthy mind.
    - fennecfoxen 15y ago
      He also shows a fundamental ignorance of evolutionary pressures, and basically makes up a story that fits his prejudices. There is, of course, much precedent for this in human history; for example, to demonstrate how black people were racially inferior. It's a fundamentally anti-scientific thing to do.
  - TeHCrAzY 15y ago
    I'd like to see some references or research to back up your comment. As it stands, I down-voted you, as I don't think you are adding valuable content: I would happily reverse my down-vote if you can produce even a small amount of evidence for this, that can be further discussed and critiqued.
    - 4ad 15y ago
      There's no evidence supporting his claims, however, it's my opinion that there's no evidence supporting the current hypotheses in the psychology of depression either. There's too little skepticism surrounding psychology, no mathematical model that can make predictions and the scientific method is not employed. I take his post simply as a hypothesis based on an opinion and nothing else. Expressing skepticism to the hypothesis is healthy, and justified, but not expressing skepticism to the current state of affairs is not healthy and unjustified. I feel there's no need to downvote the guy for simply stating a non mainstream opinion. So far, opinions is all what we have in the field anyway.
  - Peaker 15y ago
    Any genes that encode suicide would be selected against so quickly they would not make a dent in evolutionary history. There are selective pressures on societies, but they are utterly and completely dwarfed by the individual selective pressures. Whenever there is any sort of conflict between societal selection and individual selection, evolution will not give the former any say. The reason is that it takes many many generations for any genetic makeup to actually destroy societies as a whole, and it is an extremely rare event. Genetic selection based on individual success happens all the time.
- buss 15y ago
  Please take mortenjorck's advice to heart. There's very likely nothing you could have done that could have stopped this. Remember that people's emotions are not trivial problems that you can solve if you just spend enough time working on them. The tech culture is particularly toxic, in my opinion, for people suffering from depression. Depression is not something you can sit down and hammer out a solution to over a weekend. It grabs hold of people and doesn't let go. It takes years of professional help (from people who actually understand human emotions and psychology) and the will to get better. Please don't think about this too hard, because you can get caught up in all of the "If only I'd have called him" thoughts. If you feel guilty, then talk to someone who understands how to deal with these kinds of events. Even a single visit to a psychologist can do a lot to break this feedback loop of guilt. Talking to someone who knows how to listen about real feelings of guilt or depression is the best thing you can do in your position.
  - skore 15y ago
    I've written this note in another topic on this tragic event, my apologies for the repost, but I think it's important that taboo subjects like depression are discussed. Even if this turns out to not be depression in this particular case, it certainly is extremely common amongst people in tech (sitting in front of your screen, alone, for a long time really doesn't help). It helped me a lot, personally, to reach out and see just how many people went through something similar and I hope that what I wrote might in turn help out others. So here goes the repost: --- --- --- --- I wrote about depression a while ago - http://sk.or.at/elou9l http://sk.or.at/elou9l - maybe you will find words that help you in my post. Always remember: You only fail in things that you do, not in who you are.
    - robyates 15y ago
      Hey skorat, Thank you for writing that blog post. The worse part of depression has definitely been the lack of productivity. Just saying no to doing a lot of things and doing the remaining things in small chunks seems to work the best. Thanks again for sharing!
      - 15y ago
- essayist 15y ago
  I'm in deep agreement here. Gregory Bateson put it well, many years ago, writing to someone who wondered whether she/he had a role in a friend's suicide: Complete, in your imagination, this scenario: Your friend has achieved her suicide and arrived at the Pearly Gates, where she is challenged by St. Peter, who notes that she has come too soon. She says that it was all --------------- 's fault. There are many ways of completing the scenario, but one way or another, your friend has to demonstrate that she had no free will but you had. I suggest either that you both had free will or that neither of you had. http://pages.citebite.com/d1u1k9v8e9gfq http://pages.citebite.com/d1u1k9v8e9gfq
  - DilipJ 15y ago
    that's very well put. there certainly are people who cause others to commit suicide (such as an abusive spouse or parent), but they are precisely the sort of people who wouldn't feel any guilt over the suicide anyway.

by tibbon 15y ago

mortenjorck 15y ago

So I just feel terrible frankly that I mistakenly turned down interacting with him. Would have we had some conversation that would have changed his opinion on things? Given him some new hope? This is a very human reaction, but please don't let yourself get hung up on this line of thinking. Heroic intervention is something we tend to overestimate. What you can do is to be there for the people you know well. When someone's hurting, be generous with your time; be someone they can turn to. If you ever think someone's at risk, know what to look for and know where to turn.

maeon3 15y ago
I disagree, suicide is selected into the genome to get useless parts to self destruct. Like how skin cells have to shift around to service the whole. He was reaching out to everywhere he could looking for validation and found none. Mixed with a stiff upper lip and a lack of desire to show weakness is a recipe for a feedback loop of perceived irrelevance. When all around you use actions to indicate that you are a burden, not an asset. Freeing up resources is good for the hive. he loved the collective, too much. Your no's were part of the feedback loop, you couldnt have known the magnitude of what was happening, but your actions are part of his decision. Healing from this will take honesty, you can delude others but not yourself. You are a part of it, but it wasn't your responsibility.
- buss 15y ago
  Ugh, do not listen to opinions like this. You show a fundamental ignorance of human psychology and the effects of depression on an otherwise healthy mind.
  - fennecfoxen 15y ago
    He also shows a fundamental ignorance of evolutionary pressures, and basically makes up a story that fits his prejudices. There is, of course, much precedent for this in human history; for example, to demonstrate how black people were racially inferior. It's a fundamentally anti-scientific thing to do.
- TeHCrAzY 15y ago
  I'd like to see some references or research to back up your comment. As it stands, I down-voted you, as I don't think you are adding valuable content: I would happily reverse my down-vote if you can produce even a small amount of evidence for this, that can be further discussed and critiqued.
  - 4ad 15y ago
    There's no evidence supporting his claims, however, it's my opinion that there's no evidence supporting the current hypotheses in the psychology of depression either. There's too little skepticism surrounding psychology, no mathematical model that can make predictions and the scientific method is not employed. I take his post simply as a hypothesis based on an opinion and nothing else. Expressing skepticism to the hypothesis is healthy, and justified, but not expressing skepticism to the current state of affairs is not healthy and unjustified. I feel there's no need to downvote the guy for simply stating a non mainstream opinion. So far, opinions is all what we have in the field anyway.
- Peaker 15y ago
  Any genes that encode suicide would be selected against so quickly they would not make a dent in evolutionary history. There are selective pressures on societies, but they are utterly and completely dwarfed by the individual selective pressures. Whenever there is any sort of conflict between societal selection and individual selection, evolution will not give the former any say. The reason is that it takes many many generations for any genetic makeup to actually destroy societies as a whole, and it is an extremely rare event. Genetic selection based on individual success happens all the time.
buss 15y ago
Please take mortenjorck's advice to heart. There's very likely nothing you could have done that could have stopped this. Remember that people's emotions are not trivial problems that you can solve if you just spend enough time working on them. The tech culture is particularly toxic, in my opinion, for people suffering from depression. Depression is not something you can sit down and hammer out a solution to over a weekend. It grabs hold of people and doesn't let go. It takes years of professional help (from people who actually understand human emotions and psychology) and the will to get better. Please don't think about this too hard, because you can get caught up in all of the "If only I'd have called him" thoughts. If you feel guilty, then talk to someone who understands how to deal with these kinds of events. Even a single visit to a psychologist can do a lot to break this feedback loop of guilt. Talking to someone who knows how to listen about real feelings of guilt or depression is the best thing you can do in your position.
- skore 15y ago
  I've written this note in another topic on this tragic event, my apologies for the repost, but I think it's important that taboo subjects like depression are discussed. Even if this turns out to not be depression in this particular case, it certainly is extremely common amongst people in tech (sitting in front of your screen, alone, for a long time really doesn't help). It helped me a lot, personally, to reach out and see just how many people went through something similar and I hope that what I wrote might in turn help out others. So here goes the repost: --- --- --- --- I wrote about depression a while ago - http://sk.or.at/elou9l http://sk.or.at/elou9l - maybe you will find words that help you in my post. Always remember: You only fail in things that you do, not in who you are.
  - robyates 15y ago
    Hey skorat, Thank you for writing that blog post. The worse part of depression has definitely been the lack of productivity. Just saying no to doing a lot of things and doing the remaining things in small chunks seems to work the best. Thanks again for sharing!
    - 15y ago
essayist 15y ago
I'm in deep agreement here. Gregory Bateson put it well, many years ago, writing to someone who wondered whether she/he had a role in a friend's suicide: Complete, in your imagination, this scenario: Your friend has achieved her suicide and arrived at the Pearly Gates, where she is challenged by St. Peter, who notes that she has come too soon. She says that it was all --------------- 's fault. There are many ways of completing the scenario, but one way or another, your friend has to demonstrate that she had no free will but you had. I suggest either that you both had free will or that neither of you had. http://pages.citebite.com/d1u1k9v8e9gfq http://pages.citebite.com/d1u1k9v8e9gfq
- DilipJ 15y ago
  that's very well put. there certainly are people who cause others to commit suicide (such as an abusive spouse or parent), but they are precisely the sort of people who wouldn't feel any guilt over the suicide anyway.