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I think they understand it, but maybe they believe that advice is misleading. If you are enjoying it and having fun, then you are in your comfort zone, and that

I think they understand it, but maybe they believe that advice is misleading. If you are enjoying it and having fun, then you are in your comfort zone, and that means you are improving at a much lower rate than your potential. This is true for any activity, from physical fitness to academic pursuits. If you are in zone dominated by System 1 thinking and System 2 is on pause, then you are not building skill. There is nothing wrong with having fun in life for things that are not critical to you, but your core areas are developed with effort and focus. I have not met a single successful self-made person that found success without struggle and focus on their craft.

jack_pp 4y ago
> This is true for any activity, from physical fitness to academic pursuits. I don't think it's true for all activities. The author is a writer. I don't think you can grind story building or maybe you can but I doubt you will get anything actually good or creative out of it. Do you know of any painters that grind painting like you can grind exercise? All this advice about discipline is good for stuff like keeping your house clean, going to the gym, sucking it up and doing your tasks that suck at big corp or any other task that sucks because it's boring or it physically hurts. It's boring because you already kind of know what needs to be done so there is no novelty to it, it doesn't need your creative input and if you are a creative person that sucks. I care more about being satisfied with my life, getting pleasure out of it. That to me is being successful. I don't need a vacation home and a yacht or private jet so why would I grind and toil for extra money?
- dri_ft 4y ago
  > Do you know of any painters that grind painting like you can grind exercise? Do you think Leonardo got good enough to do the Sistine chapel by daubing a doodle or two when the mood took him? You absolutely can and, to get good, must grind such things. Everyone knows this is true of musicianship; painting and writing are no different. (Maybe painters don't grind their technique as much nowadays as they once did, but the decline of technique in painting over time reflects that.) As Picasso said: 'Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working'.
  - jack_pp 4y ago
    Maybe painting is not that great an example. And maybe it's not either or, maybe when you're composing music or thinking about your new book or project you need to be in a creative state and that is very different from a grinding disciplined state that requires you to actually execute on your vision. But I still hold that you can not ” grind” vision
    - manholio 4y ago
      "Vision" is what happens in your brain after you grind 10,000 hours on a skill that is improvable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eW6Eagr9XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eW6Eagr9XA At that point, you no longer have to grind, because your brain has hardwired decision paths that are automatic and produce correct results for extremely complex problems like "is this character likeable and understandable by the reader", and you can effortlessly add a few high value paragraphs to their backstory. But it's foolhardy to think that level of "flow" can be achieved out of thin air, without writing hundreds of characters before them, re-reading them, getting feedback from other readers, studying other briliant authors with a eye for their technique etc.
      - jack_pp 4y ago
        I don't agree with the 10k hours bullshit popularized by Gladwell, google a bit about him and you will see he admitted that all his "non-fiction" books were actually insight porn more than teaching you anything useful. I liked his books too until I realized he just made up nice pop-culture stories and pretended to tell you the truth. That said of course you have to have some level of practice and knowledge about whatever you want to create before you can be inspired to create something new. That doesn't mean you can be creative just because you've had practice. I remember Huberman and others talking about circadian rythms and how people are more creative at night, can't remember the exact reasons, might've been something about cortisol being lower then. I do believe cortisol levels are a hint as usually you are less creative on "uppers" like caffeine or adderall than you are without them because you always want to do things while on them and not actually think deeply about your problem.
- badpun 4y ago
  > Do you know of any painters that grind painting like you can grind exercise? I think absolutely most of them do, at least in figurative painting (the kind of painting that tries to resemble reality).
jasode 4y ago
>If you are enjoying it and having fun, then you are in your comfort zone, and that means you are _improving_ at a much lower rate than your potential. [...] If you are in zone dominated by System 1 thinking and System 2 is on pause, then you are not building _skill_. [My emphasis on "improving" and "skill" to highlight a misinterpretation.] I understand your point but you've still misinterpreted her essay. (This is mostly the author's fault because of her short title that tries to be contrarian and the long body of text that's not written forcefully enough to break the readers' preconceived about "discipline" that was shaped by hundreds of other essays about the same topic.) Her particular essay is not about "doing work" or "improving skill". Yes, many other essays about "discipline" are intertwined with work+skill but that's not her essay's main idea. An example of non-work non-skill activity she wrote about is the joy of being in bed. She's wondering if attaching the concept of "discipline" to "going to bed early" is sabotaging the brain from going to bed early. If she likes the sensation of being in bed, why doesn't she just go to bed?!? She then wonders if "discipline" brings out the inner rebellious child that makes pleasurable activities hard to start. That's the meta-analysis her essay is trying to convey.
zozbot234 4y ago
> If you are enjoying it and having fun, then you are in your comfort zone, and that means you are improving at a much lower rate than your potential. This is not obvious at all. Improvement is dependent on focused, deliberate practice, and being "in the zone" makes it easier to sustain such practice over time. Willpower is a scarce resource; it seems especially silly to waste it on things that can be successfully "gamified" or made enjoyable.
vandreas2 4y ago
Play and exploration are not mutually exclusive, in fact they seem intertwined. Children discover by playing. Exploration and staying in your comfort zone do seem mutually exclusive however, I wouldn't think playing prevents you from learning or doing new stuff. Or that any kind of joy is actually detrimental to your personal development.

jack_pp 4y ago

> This is true for any activity, from physical fitness to academic pursuits. I don't think it's true for all activities. The author is a writer. I don't think you can grind story building or maybe you can but I doubt you will get anything actually good or creative out of it. Do you know of any painters that grind painting like you can grind exercise? All this advice about discipline is good for stuff like keeping your house clean, going to the gym, sucking it up and doing your tasks that suck at big corp or any other task that sucks because it's boring or it physically hurts. It's boring because you already kind of know what needs to be done so there is no novelty to it, it doesn't need your creative input and if you are a creative person that sucks. I care more about being satisfied with my life, getting pleasure out of it. That to me is being successful. I don't need a vacation home and a yacht or private jet so why would I grind and toil for extra money?

dri_ft 4y ago
> Do you know of any painters that grind painting like you can grind exercise? Do you think Leonardo got good enough to do the Sistine chapel by daubing a doodle or two when the mood took him? You absolutely can and, to get good, must grind such things. Everyone knows this is true of musicianship; painting and writing are no different. (Maybe painters don't grind their technique as much nowadays as they once did, but the decline of technique in painting over time reflects that.) As Picasso said: 'Inspiration exists, but it has to find you working'.
- jack_pp 4y ago
  Maybe painting is not that great an example. And maybe it's not either or, maybe when you're composing music or thinking about your new book or project you need to be in a creative state and that is very different from a grinding disciplined state that requires you to actually execute on your vision. But I still hold that you can not ” grind” vision
  - manholio 4y ago
    "Vision" is what happens in your brain after you grind 10,000 hours on a skill that is improvable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eW6Eagr9XA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eW6Eagr9XA At that point, you no longer have to grind, because your brain has hardwired decision paths that are automatic and produce correct results for extremely complex problems like "is this character likeable and understandable by the reader", and you can effortlessly add a few high value paragraphs to their backstory. But it's foolhardy to think that level of "flow" can be achieved out of thin air, without writing hundreds of characters before them, re-reading them, getting feedback from other readers, studying other briliant authors with a eye for their technique etc.
    - jack_pp 4y ago
      I don't agree with the 10k hours bullshit popularized by Gladwell, google a bit about him and you will see he admitted that all his "non-fiction" books were actually insight porn more than teaching you anything useful. I liked his books too until I realized he just made up nice pop-culture stories and pretended to tell you the truth. That said of course you have to have some level of practice and knowledge about whatever you want to create before you can be inspired to create something new. That doesn't mean you can be creative just because you've had practice. I remember Huberman and others talking about circadian rythms and how people are more creative at night, can't remember the exact reasons, might've been something about cortisol being lower then. I do believe cortisol levels are a hint as usually you are less creative on "uppers" like caffeine or adderall than you are without them because you always want to do things while on them and not actually think deeply about your problem.
badpun 4y ago
> Do you know of any painters that grind painting like you can grind exercise? I think absolutely most of them do, at least in figurative painting (the kind of painting that tries to resemble reality).

jasode 4y ago

>If you are enjoying it and having fun, then you are in your comfort zone, and that means you are _improving_ at a much lower rate than your potential. [...] If you are in zone dominated by System 1 thinking and System 2 is on pause, then you are not building _skill_. [My emphasis on "improving" and "skill" to highlight a misinterpretation.] I understand your point but you've still misinterpreted her essay. (This is mostly the author's fault because of her short title that tries to be contrarian and the long body of text that's not written forcefully enough to break the readers' preconceived about "discipline" that was shaped by hundreds of other essays about the same topic.) Her particular essay is not about "doing work" or "improving skill". Yes, many other essays about "discipline" are intertwined with work+skill but that's not her essay's main idea. An example of non-work non-skill activity she wrote about is the joy of being in bed. She's wondering if attaching the concept of "discipline" to "going to bed early" is sabotaging the brain from going to bed early. If she likes the sensation of being in bed, why doesn't she just go to bed?!? She then wonders if "discipline" brings out the inner rebellious child that makes pleasurable activities hard to start. That's the meta-analysis her essay is trying to convey.

zozbot234 4y ago

> If you are enjoying it and having fun, then you are in your comfort zone, and that means you are improving at a much lower rate than your potential. This is not obvious at all. Improvement is dependent on focused, deliberate practice, and being "in the zone" makes it easier to sustain such practice over time. Willpower is a scarce resource; it seems especially silly to waste it on things that can be successfully "gamified" or made enjoyable.

vandreas2 4y ago

Play and exploration are not mutually exclusive, in fact they seem intertwined. Children discover by playing. Exploration and staying in your comfort zone do seem mutually exclusive however, I wouldn't think playing prevents you from learning or doing new stuff. Or that any kind of joy is actually detrimental to your personal development.