6 ms·

I've lived in rural, suburban (McMansion-dominated), and urban parts of the US, including NYC. I grew up in a semi-rural place. NYC was by far the most depress

by smt88 4y ago

I've lived in rural, suburban (McMansion-dominated), and urban parts of the US, including NYC. I grew up in a semi-rural place. NYC was by far the most depressing and soul-crushing for me. It's lonely despite being crowded, it's filthy, it's unreasonably expensive, it's hard to get anywhere, and it's unfortunately full of people with a similarly condescending viewpoint about people/places outside the city. I now live in a large southern city with lots of sidewalks and love it, and returning to New York makes me incredibly sad for the people who still think it's the only city to live in. My point is not that I'm correct. It's just how I feel. Rather, I suggest you examine how you talk about your viewpoint to avoid sounding so confident about things you have no actual experience in.

BenFranklin100 4y ago
Sound like urban living is not your cup of tea. Which is entirely fine and something YIMBYs strongly support. YIMBYism is about options: those who do prefer to live in an area should not face artificial restrictions like bans on new homes in desirable areas near well paying jobs.
- smt88 4y ago
  I love urban living and currently live in a dense part of a large city. Condescension toward people who don't fall into that category is what isn't my cup of tea.
  - BenFranklin100 4y ago
    Gotcha.
bshepard 4y ago
I also find New York City to be extremely depressing, and radically subpar urbanistically compared with Berlin, where I currently live. You can take an S-Bahn in 30 minutes or so to S-Bahn Schlachtensee and swim clean, chill and easily accessible lake - a journey to the water in New York will take much much longer, involve more walking, and involve dirtier water. It is easy to find scapegoats for the poor urbanism of the United States, but very difficult to think of a solution without a radical change in the nature of governance.
- cjrp 4y ago
  And in Berlin you can cycle! I'm not a regular cyclist, but on holiday I felt totally comfortable renting a bike and using the bike lanes to get around.
  - ido 4y ago
    As a resident of Berlin (that likes living there) I feel it's important to also mention NYC has almost 2.5 times as many people and unlike Berlin is part of a large urban agglomeration (the northeast megalopolis - total population ~50m). It's not quite a fair comparison.
    - throwaway894345 4y ago
      Right, but the original comment was (condescendingly) comparing NYC to middle America, so differing densities and other demographics are precisely the point.
      - m_ke 4y ago
        No, my point was about the car centric bend of a large portion of suburban / rural America. I wrote that message at like 1am, see my comment here for what I meant https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32355777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32355777 Compare Pittsburgh suburb (https://goo.gl/maps/bFBWcsJ6EeL1kgVe7 https://goo.gl/maps/bFBWcsJ6EeL1kgVe7) to the suburbs of the town that I was born in (https://goo.gl/maps/ktkWzAUa3tyz37hQ7 https://goo.gl/maps/ktkWzAUa3tyz37hQ7). This is an even better example: https://goo.gl/maps/cAECdLXaBVoErtsFA https://goo.gl/maps/cAECdLXaBVoErtsFA vs https://goo.gl/maps/oBmruFK2Sqaxg6TW7 https://goo.gl/maps/oBmruFK2Sqaxg6TW7 EDIT: Same goes for the Bay Area, staying by YC offices for the interviews was depressing too. Look at this: https://goo.gl/maps/ERCkS7zrHw8tM2or9 https://goo.gl/maps/ERCkS7zrHw8tM2or9
      - evolve2k 4y ago
        NotJustBikes has some excellent videos on the differences between US and European cities, this one captures many of the issues - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHlpmxLTxpw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHlpmxLTxpw
crispyambulance 4y ago
NYC has serious and complicated problems and it's perhaps not the best idea to hold it up as the pinnacle of a "walkable town". There are better choices to use for that example. As you sort-of implicitly suggest, it doesn't have to be a choice between a soulless suburb with no sidewalks and a piss-soaked urban hellscape-- with NOTHING in-between. What we do need, however, is more urban centers with walkable, complete streets, human amenities and a broad mix of different housing types for a wide spectrum income levels and NOT separate isolated enclaves for the wealthy and the poor. Especially important are appropriate and truly useable "third-places" rather just bauble shops for the wealthy, dollar stores for the poor, and distant megamalls for the middle-class surrounded an ocean of asphalt.
- m_ke 4y ago
  NYC is not midtown manhattan. Please go check out Queens or Brooklyn next time you visit, I promise you it's safe and full of walkable and bikeable streets.
- ahoy 4y ago
  This is the kind of comment you write when your only experience with NYC is as a tourist in the densest parts of Manhattan.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Where are you going in NYC? I live in a tree lined neighborhood with pleasant little cafes and restaurants. I bike a lot of places and I'm equally close to two large parks. There's some mix of incomes as the adjacent neighborhoods blend together. I hear the schools are pretty good, and there's good train access.
  - m_ke 4y ago
    Some people think New Yorkers live in Times Square or the Empire State Building.
  - crispyambulance 4y ago
    woah... I am not "against" NYC. I think it's awesome as a whole and I go there frequently. But yeah, it does have deep problems, the cost-of-living is borderline insane and it REALLY DOES smell like pee in far too many places. I am just saying that NYC is not the best example of where we want urban centers to aspire to. For one thing, nothing in the USA is as big and or has the financial resources of NYC. Towns in the US that want to improve their housing situation need to look towards what OTHER SIMILAR towns are doing and are successful at. NYC is such a weird case on the basis of scale and density.
m_ke 4y ago
I was actually born in Poland and spent the first half of my childhood on the outskirts of a mid sized town, 2 blocks from a huge forrest, and enjoyed it a ton, as a 10 year old I was able to walk or bike to any corner of the town on my own. I'm not being condescending about living in suburbs or rural areas, just the design of a large portion of car dominated suburban areas of the US. As an example, I just got back from Pittsburgh, where I was staying in an AirBnB that was only 2 miles north of the city. I was really excited to explore Pittsburgh and was hoping to bike or walk down to the city after work but it would have been a 50min walk down a narrow road that's dominated by F150s and mini vans, something that even as an adult I didn't feel safe doing. I got to see a large portion of the northern suburbs of Pittsburgh and most of it looked like that, as I was driving through it it hit me that there are no kids out even though it's the middle of Summer, the only place we saw any was at shopping malls with their parents. NYC is not a soul crushing place full of condescending people if step outside of the touristy areas of Manhattan. I grew up in Queens (Ridgewood / Kew Gardens Hills) and lived in Harlem and northern Brooklyn as an adult, all of which are some of the most diverse zip codes of the world with a ton of friendly middle class people. As a teenager I was able to bike or take the train to any basketball court in the city, say hi and play with people from all over the world. These days with all of the bike lanes that they added I can bike to almost anywhere in the city in under 30min and it's my main mode of transportation. EDIT: Good biking video demonstrating soul crushing new york https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77nmYdbJSJ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77nmYdbJSJ0
- richiebful1 4y ago
  The North Hills (suburbs) of Pittsburgh are depressing indeed. I love the work the city proper has done to make walking and cycling a priority though!
  - m_ke 4y ago
    Yeah I actually really liked proper Pittsburgh and was impressed by all of the bike lanes and greenery.
- horns4lyfe 4y ago
  You’re still just generalizing your experience in a way that implies that you actually know what most of middle America is like, when you don’t. And having lived in Poland doesn’t somehow prove that you do.
pessimizer 4y ago
> I now live in a large southern city with lots of sidewalks So you pretty much agree with the person that you're implying is an elitist, and live in exactly the same neighborhood they would choose if they found a good job in your city. You're not defending McMansion-dominated neighborhoods very well. I don't understand the aggression.
- smt88 4y ago
  It's not that that person was wrong. They were right -- about their own preferences. They feel sorry for people who are different from them and want different things. Some people love being able to drive places (my disabled sister is one of them). I feel sorry for people who don't know they're in a bubble. Maybe they truly want to live in a cookie-cutter McMansion suburb and just won't allow themselves to consider it for cultural reasons. That specifically is unlikely, but some version of it is probably happening, and they're missing out as a result.
ahoy 4y ago
It's the cars for me. I hate driving. I hate how everyone having a car makes it necessary to drive everywhere. Very few cities in the us let you get away without owning a car. NYC isn't perfect, its just better than everywhere else ive lived.
ransom1538 4y ago
I think it has to do with what stage you are at in life. If I was an eight year old kid NYC would be terrible: no pool, no pet dog, no backyard, rough schools, dirty public transits, restaurants don't have kids menus, etc etc. If I was a 23 year old college grad - NYC is the place to be: high paying stressful work, awesome happy hours, awesome C level mentors, easy to find roommates, killer Manhattan apartments, etc etc. If I was a 43 year old family man, NYC would again be horrible: terrible schools, long commutes, high crime, expensive beer, no car parking for kids, insane mortgages or rent, parks covered in homeless, old run down apartments.

by smt88 4y ago

BenFranklin100 4y ago

Sound like urban living is not your cup of tea. Which is entirely fine and something YIMBYs strongly support. YIMBYism is about options: those who do prefer to live in an area should not face artificial restrictions like bans on new homes in desirable areas near well paying jobs.

smt88 4y ago
I love urban living and currently live in a dense part of a large city. Condescension toward people who don't fall into that category is what isn't my cup of tea.
- BenFranklin100 4y ago
  Gotcha.

bshepard 4y ago

I also find New York City to be extremely depressing, and radically subpar urbanistically compared with Berlin, where I currently live. You can take an S-Bahn in 30 minutes or so to S-Bahn Schlachtensee and swim clean, chill and easily accessible lake - a journey to the water in New York will take much much longer, involve more walking, and involve dirtier water. It is easy to find scapegoats for the poor urbanism of the United States, but very difficult to think of a solution without a radical change in the nature of governance.

cjrp 4y ago
And in Berlin you can cycle! I'm not a regular cyclist, but on holiday I felt totally comfortable renting a bike and using the bike lanes to get around.
- ido 4y ago
  As a resident of Berlin (that likes living there) I feel it's important to also mention NYC has almost 2.5 times as many people and unlike Berlin is part of a large urban agglomeration (the northeast megalopolis - total population ~50m). It's not quite a fair comparison.
  - throwaway894345 4y ago
    Right, but the original comment was (condescendingly) comparing NYC to middle America, so differing densities and other demographics are precisely the point.
    - m_ke 4y ago
      No, my point was about the car centric bend of a large portion of suburban / rural America. I wrote that message at like 1am, see my comment here for what I meant https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32355777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32355777 Compare Pittsburgh suburb (https://goo.gl/maps/bFBWcsJ6EeL1kgVe7 https://goo.gl/maps/bFBWcsJ6EeL1kgVe7) to the suburbs of the town that I was born in (https://goo.gl/maps/ktkWzAUa3tyz37hQ7 https://goo.gl/maps/ktkWzAUa3tyz37hQ7). This is an even better example: https://goo.gl/maps/cAECdLXaBVoErtsFA https://goo.gl/maps/cAECdLXaBVoErtsFA vs https://goo.gl/maps/oBmruFK2Sqaxg6TW7 https://goo.gl/maps/oBmruFK2Sqaxg6TW7 EDIT: Same goes for the Bay Area, staying by YC offices for the interviews was depressing too. Look at this: https://goo.gl/maps/ERCkS7zrHw8tM2or9 https://goo.gl/maps/ERCkS7zrHw8tM2or9
    - evolve2k 4y ago
      NotJustBikes has some excellent videos on the differences between US and European cities, this one captures many of the issues - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHlpmxLTxpw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oHlpmxLTxpw

crispyambulance 4y ago

NYC has serious and complicated problems and it's perhaps not the best idea to hold it up as the pinnacle of a "walkable town". There are better choices to use for that example. As you sort-of implicitly suggest, it doesn't have to be a choice between a soulless suburb with no sidewalks and a piss-soaked urban hellscape-- with NOTHING in-between. What we do need, however, is more urban centers with walkable, complete streets, human amenities and a broad mix of different housing types for a wide spectrum income levels and NOT separate isolated enclaves for the wealthy and the poor. Especially important are appropriate and truly useable "third-places" rather just bauble shops for the wealthy, dollar stores for the poor, and distant megamalls for the middle-class surrounded an ocean of asphalt.

m_ke 4y ago
NYC is not midtown manhattan. Please go check out Queens or Brooklyn next time you visit, I promise you it's safe and full of walkable and bikeable streets.
ahoy 4y ago
This is the kind of comment you write when your only experience with NYC is as a tourist in the densest parts of Manhattan.
ch4s3 4y ago
Where are you going in NYC? I live in a tree lined neighborhood with pleasant little cafes and restaurants. I bike a lot of places and I'm equally close to two large parks. There's some mix of incomes as the adjacent neighborhoods blend together. I hear the schools are pretty good, and there's good train access.
- m_ke 4y ago
  Some people think New Yorkers live in Times Square or the Empire State Building.
- crispyambulance 4y ago
  woah... I am not "against" NYC. I think it's awesome as a whole and I go there frequently. But yeah, it does have deep problems, the cost-of-living is borderline insane and it REALLY DOES smell like pee in far too many places. I am just saying that NYC is not the best example of where we want urban centers to aspire to. For one thing, nothing in the USA is as big and or has the financial resources of NYC. Towns in the US that want to improve their housing situation need to look towards what OTHER SIMILAR towns are doing and are successful at. NYC is such a weird case on the basis of scale and density.

m_ke 4y ago

I was actually born in Poland and spent the first half of my childhood on the outskirts of a mid sized town, 2 blocks from a huge forrest, and enjoyed it a ton, as a 10 year old I was able to walk or bike to any corner of the town on my own. I'm not being condescending about living in suburbs or rural areas, just the design of a large portion of car dominated suburban areas of the US. As an example, I just got back from Pittsburgh, where I was staying in an AirBnB that was only 2 miles north of the city. I was really excited to explore Pittsburgh and was hoping to bike or walk down to the city after work but it would have been a 50min walk down a narrow road that's dominated by F150s and mini vans, something that even as an adult I didn't feel safe doing. I got to see a large portion of the northern suburbs of Pittsburgh and most of it looked like that, as I was driving through it it hit me that there are no kids out even though it's the middle of Summer, the only place we saw any was at shopping malls with their parents. NYC is not a soul crushing place full of condescending people if step outside of the touristy areas of Manhattan. I grew up in Queens (Ridgewood / Kew Gardens Hills) and lived in Harlem and northern Brooklyn as an adult, all of which are some of the most diverse zip codes of the world with a ton of friendly middle class people. As a teenager I was able to bike or take the train to any basketball court in the city, say hi and play with people from all over the world. These days with all of the bike lanes that they added I can bike to almost anywhere in the city in under 30min and it's my main mode of transportation. EDIT: Good biking video demonstrating soul crushing new york https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77nmYdbJSJ0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77nmYdbJSJ0

richiebful1 4y ago
The North Hills (suburbs) of Pittsburgh are depressing indeed. I love the work the city proper has done to make walking and cycling a priority though!
- m_ke 4y ago
  Yeah I actually really liked proper Pittsburgh and was impressed by all of the bike lanes and greenery.
horns4lyfe 4y ago
You’re still just generalizing your experience in a way that implies that you actually know what most of middle America is like, when you don’t. And having lived in Poland doesn’t somehow prove that you do.

pessimizer 4y ago

> I now live in a large southern city with lots of sidewalks So you pretty much agree with the person that you're implying is an elitist, and live in exactly the same neighborhood they would choose if they found a good job in your city. You're not defending McMansion-dominated neighborhoods very well. I don't understand the aggression.

smt88 4y ago
It's not that that person was wrong. They were right -- about their own preferences. They feel sorry for people who are different from them and want different things. Some people love being able to drive places (my disabled sister is one of them). I feel sorry for people who don't know they're in a bubble. Maybe they truly want to live in a cookie-cutter McMansion suburb and just won't allow themselves to consider it for cultural reasons. That specifically is unlikely, but some version of it is probably happening, and they're missing out as a result.

ahoy 4y ago

It's the cars for me. I hate driving. I hate how everyone having a car makes it necessary to drive everywhere. Very few cities in the us let you get away without owning a car. NYC isn't perfect, its just better than everywhere else ive lived.

ransom1538 4y ago

I think it has to do with what stage you are at in life. If I was an eight year old kid NYC would be terrible: no pool, no pet dog, no backyard, rough schools, dirty public transits, restaurants don't have kids menus, etc etc. If I was a 23 year old college grad - NYC is the place to be: high paying stressful work, awesome happy hours, awesome C level mentors, easy to find roommates, killer Manhattan apartments, etc etc. If I was a 43 year old family man, NYC would again be horrible: terrible schools, long commutes, high crime, expensive beer, no car parking for kids, insane mortgages or rent, parks covered in homeless, old run down apartments.