6 ms·

Apple retaliated against women who complained about misconduct

70 points by T3OU-736 4y ago

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
gnarbarian 4y ago
Apple's a big company so I'm sure there is misconduct there. I would encourage you all to remember that there are two sides to every story before you get your pitchforks out. This story doesn't even attempt to investigate anything beyond compiling and accepting the allegations at face value. With the instance of rape called out in this piece I was shocked but I was also confused as to why she didn't go to the police. That leads me to believe that there is likely something else going on here.
- fire 4y ago
  > why she didn't go to the police something leads me to believe you don't realize the can of worms this statement opens personal traumas are highly complex for one, and more to the point, there's many reasons why someone may not report such an event to a particular authority.
  - bogantech 4y ago
    So we just ruin someone's life based on unproven accusations instead?
    - T3OU-736 4y ago
      No, HR takes the allegation seriously, does an investigation, and if the facts support the allegation, then ruins the guilty party's life. And the allegation was found to be baseless and, instead, was some sort of a ploy - ruins the false accuser's life. My larger takeaway from the article (when did Engadget get so serious?) is that it calls out Apple HR's apparent failures to take the cited examples seriously. The individual merits of each case are important, and at the micro level they have huge conseqiences, but my takeaway was a larger "do better, Apple - live up to your own claims and ideals". To be fair, it is certain that there were a lot of other cases where Apple's HR shined, but these - newp.
      - polski-g 4y ago
        HR doesn't have a crime lab. They can't do DNA analysis. They don't have subpoena power. They aren't trained to investigate criminality. Why in god's name would you want HR doing this instead of the police?
      - gnarbarian 4y ago
        I think it's also possible that Apple's HR did take these accusations seriously but found them to be bogus.
      - everforward 4y ago
        > No, HR takes the allegation seriously, does an investigation, and if the facts support the allegation, then ruins the guilty party's life. > And the allegation was found to be baseless and, instead, was some sort of a ploy - ruins the false accuser's life. The obvious problem is that HR lacks any oversight, and is not a legal, moral, or investigative authority. They are woefully unsuited to perform an investigation or to enforce punishments. An obvious issue is that they cannot compel testimony; how meaningful is an investigation where the only info they can get is that which is voluntarily provided, and it's perfectly legal to lie to them? That sword cuts both ways; the insufficiency of the investigation and lack of due process can penalize both legitimate accusers and the guilty party. We have a whole justice system designed to handle situations like this. They have due process to ensure the fairness of a trial. They can compel testimony, even from third parties if they want to look at text messages or whatever. They have the authority and mandate to hand out punishments. People refusing to use that justice system, for whatever reason, is not a problem Apple needs to solve. That's a problem society needs to solve. I really don't want to privatize the enforcement of legal issues, lest we bring the Pinkertons back.
        T3OU-736 4y ago
        Hrm. You make very good points. It does feel as though HR, not having the full weight of the legal system should, instead, be able to be an arbiter (imperfect though it would be) with the weight of "consequences to continued employment" as the authority.
webmobdev 4y ago
Not surprised. Corporate retaliation against anyone who speaks up seems to be the de facto rule in any industry. On a slightly different topic, I've sometimes struggled working with women bosses - they are harder to impress than men! (I know it's a generalisation, but I think this is perhaps because women compete socially, and thus tend to look beyond your work too, more than men - i.e. also considering your "social ranking" within your peers and superiors to form an opinion of your competence).
- 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
  > because women compete socially, and thus tend to look beyond your work too, more than men - i.e. also considering your "social ranking" within your peers and superiors to form an opinion of your competence this sounds like you're talking about bonobos or chimpanzees. maybe we are just swanky apes.
  - webmobdev 4y ago
    No need to take any offence where none was intended. I did point out I was making a generalisation (obviously based on my limited life view).
    - 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
      it was meant as a joke, no offence taken!
FounderBurr 4y ago
Supporting women does not make one obligated to ignore facts or fail to protect oneself from crazy.

70 points by T3OU-736 4y ago

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

Apple's a big company so I'm sure there is misconduct there. I would encourage you all to remember that there are two sides to every story before you get your pitchforks out. This story doesn't even attempt to investigate anything beyond compiling and accepting the allegations at face value. With the instance of rape called out in this piece I was shocked but I was also confused as to why she didn't go to the police. That leads me to believe that there is likely something else going on here.

fire 4y ago
> why she didn't go to the police something leads me to believe you don't realize the can of worms this statement opens personal traumas are highly complex for one, and more to the point, there's many reasons why someone may not report such an event to a particular authority.
- bogantech 4y ago
  So we just ruin someone's life based on unproven accusations instead?
  - T3OU-736 4y ago
    No, HR takes the allegation seriously, does an investigation, and if the facts support the allegation, then ruins the guilty party's life. And the allegation was found to be baseless and, instead, was some sort of a ploy - ruins the false accuser's life. My larger takeaway from the article (when did Engadget get so serious?) is that it calls out Apple HR's apparent failures to take the cited examples seriously. The individual merits of each case are important, and at the micro level they have huge conseqiences, but my takeaway was a larger "do better, Apple - live up to your own claims and ideals". To be fair, it is certain that there were a lot of other cases where Apple's HR shined, but these - newp.
    - polski-g 4y ago
      HR doesn't have a crime lab. They can't do DNA analysis. They don't have subpoena power. They aren't trained to investigate criminality. Why in god's name would you want HR doing this instead of the police?
    - gnarbarian 4y ago
      I think it's also possible that Apple's HR did take these accusations seriously but found them to be bogus.
    - everforward 4y ago
      > No, HR takes the allegation seriously, does an investigation, and if the facts support the allegation, then ruins the guilty party's life. > And the allegation was found to be baseless and, instead, was some sort of a ploy - ruins the false accuser's life. The obvious problem is that HR lacks any oversight, and is not a legal, moral, or investigative authority. They are woefully unsuited to perform an investigation or to enforce punishments. An obvious issue is that they cannot compel testimony; how meaningful is an investigation where the only info they can get is that which is voluntarily provided, and it's perfectly legal to lie to them? That sword cuts both ways; the insufficiency of the investigation and lack of due process can penalize both legitimate accusers and the guilty party. We have a whole justice system designed to handle situations like this. They have due process to ensure the fairness of a trial. They can compel testimony, even from third parties if they want to look at text messages or whatever. They have the authority and mandate to hand out punishments. People refusing to use that justice system, for whatever reason, is not a problem Apple needs to solve. That's a problem society needs to solve. I really don't want to privatize the enforcement of legal issues, lest we bring the Pinkertons back.
      - T3OU-736 4y ago
        Hrm. You make very good points. It does feel as though HR, not having the full weight of the legal system should, instead, be able to be an arbiter (imperfect though it would be) with the weight of "consequences to continued employment" as the authority.

webmobdev 4y ago

Not surprised. Corporate retaliation against anyone who speaks up seems to be the de facto rule in any industry. On a slightly different topic, I've sometimes struggled working with women bosses - they are harder to impress than men! (I know it's a generalisation, but I think this is perhaps because women compete socially, and thus tend to look beyond your work too, more than men - i.e. also considering your "social ranking" within your peers and superiors to form an opinion of your competence).

5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
> because women compete socially, and thus tend to look beyond your work too, more than men - i.e. also considering your "social ranking" within your peers and superiors to form an opinion of your competence this sounds like you're talking about bonobos or chimpanzees. maybe we are just swanky apes.
- webmobdev 4y ago
  No need to take any offence where none was intended. I did point out I was making a generalisation (obviously based on my limited life view).
  - 5350-uiop-1130 4y ago
    it was meant as a joke, no offence taken!

FounderBurr 4y ago

Supporting women does not make one obligated to ignore facts or fail to protect oneself from crazy.