4 ms·

Hardly a new ideea indeed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_...

Hardly a new ideea indeed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_... Edit: To be clear, I posit that consciousness is the organ that enables us to distinguish between Good and Evil.

wpietri 4y ago
I doubt that consciousness is an organ, but if it were, it's distinct from a moral sense, because we share that with animals. Here's a good book on the topic: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674356610 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674356610 That same professor has done a bunch more work on the topic, as have many others.
- fatherzine 4y ago
  Frans de Waal has done great work. Evolution is a strange phenomenon. I invite us to marvel at the transformation of terrestrial quadrupeds into majestic aquatic creatures, over eons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans Evolutionary speaking, cetaceans "share" the front limbs with quadrupeds. And yet there is a qualitatively distinct functional difference. Consider that moral consciousness, as present in humans, is functionally not quite the same as its biological precursor, the moral sense present in dogs or gorillas. And, of course, there are gradual changes along the evolutionary way. Edit: "Organ", more precise "sensory organ", as in "the visual organ". Perhaps there is a better word here than "organ" here, before we get lost in the medical distinction between eye / retina / optic nerve / cortex / etc.
  - wpietri 4y ago
    Sure. Nothing is the same. Every animal is slightly different. As humans trying to understand the world with 3 pounds of meat, we abstract and group so we have a chance of dealing with the overwhelming complexity. But I stand by my point. A moral sense is something that provably exists in a lot of social animals. Is it different in each species? Yes. Is it different in each individual? Surely. But unless you're going to claim that all of those animals are conscious, you can't say that consciousness is foundational to a moral sense. Indeed, I think the much easier argument is that a moral sense is foundational to evolving consciousness.
    - fatherzine 4y ago
      Why we should be reduce human morality to what can be "provably" found in other social animals? There are some rudimentary similarities, but those similarities do not circumscribe the entirety of human moral experience, not by a large stretch.
      - wpietri 4y ago
        You're now arguing against things I didn't say, so I think I'll leave this discussion here.
- TomSwirly 4y ago
  It's entirely unclear that no other animals exhibit consciousness.
  - fatherzine 4y ago
    Rudiments? Probably. Existential dread? Sainthood? Unlikely.

wpietri 4y ago

I doubt that consciousness is an organ, but if it were, it's distinct from a moral sense, because we share that with animals. Here's a good book on the topic: https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674356610 https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674356610 That same professor has done a bunch more work on the topic, as have many others.

fatherzine 4y ago
Frans de Waal has done great work. Evolution is a strange phenomenon. I invite us to marvel at the transformation of terrestrial quadrupeds into majestic aquatic creatures, over eons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_cetaceans Evolutionary speaking, cetaceans "share" the front limbs with quadrupeds. And yet there is a qualitatively distinct functional difference. Consider that moral consciousness, as present in humans, is functionally not quite the same as its biological precursor, the moral sense present in dogs or gorillas. And, of course, there are gradual changes along the evolutionary way. Edit: "Organ", more precise "sensory organ", as in "the visual organ". Perhaps there is a better word here than "organ" here, before we get lost in the medical distinction between eye / retina / optic nerve / cortex / etc.
- wpietri 4y ago
  Sure. Nothing is the same. Every animal is slightly different. As humans trying to understand the world with 3 pounds of meat, we abstract and group so we have a chance of dealing with the overwhelming complexity. But I stand by my point. A moral sense is something that provably exists in a lot of social animals. Is it different in each species? Yes. Is it different in each individual? Surely. But unless you're going to claim that all of those animals are conscious, you can't say that consciousness is foundational to a moral sense. Indeed, I think the much easier argument is that a moral sense is foundational to evolving consciousness.
  - fatherzine 4y ago
    Why we should be reduce human morality to what can be "provably" found in other social animals? There are some rudimentary similarities, but those similarities do not circumscribe the entirety of human moral experience, not by a large stretch.
    - wpietri 4y ago
      You're now arguing against things I didn't say, so I think I'll leave this discussion here.
TomSwirly 4y ago
It's entirely unclear that no other animals exhibit consciousness.
- fatherzine 4y ago
  Rudiments? Probably. Existential dread? Sainthood? Unlikely.