5 ms·

I wonder if they should account for evolutionary adaptions in the grape plants. This article doesn't seem to touch on that but it seems like a species of plant

I wonder if they should account for evolutionary adaptions in the grape plants. This article doesn't seem to touch on that but it seems like a species of plant could change a lot over 650 years!

readthenotes1 4y ago
Like the watermelon https://images.app.goo.gl/8miHX48hfcHZ3rGQ7 https://images.app.goo.gl/8miHX48hfcHZ3rGQ7 Or the chicken https://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/10/2/6875031/chickens-breeding-farming-boilers-giant https://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/10/2/6875031/chickens-breedi...
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  Nah, that's just a watermelon at a different stage of ripeness. (I eat like five or six watermelons a year) I've gotten one like that, it's rare because we know how to pick em these days.
  - markdown 4y ago
    The seeds are dark brown/black, so it's ripe. And you won't find a watermelon these days with swirls in it.
    - throwawaymaths 4y ago
      You can if you buy seeded watermelons? Here is a modern picture of a modern watermelon with slightly less dramatic swirls. If you had bought it a few weeks earlier the swirls would be more prominent: http://sites.psu.edu/siowfa15/wp-content/uploads/sites/29639/2015/12/watermelon.png http://sites.psu.edu/siowfa15/wp-content/uploads/sites/29639...
      - throwawaymaths 4y ago
        You can also see the swirls come out dramatically if you take a seeded watermelon and leave it in (a very cold, to avoid mold) fridge for a few weeks!
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      Nonsense. It isn't just a matter of ripeness, but also how many times the flower was pollinated. I got one from a friend's garden much like it last year.
  - Buttons840 4y ago
    Wouldn't that be like me painting a bowl of fruit (a common thing to practice painting) full of green oranges and green bananas? Why did this renaissance painter decide to paint an unripened fruit cut and prepared for eating?
    - thfuran 4y ago
      I don't know, why did Dali paint melted clocks?
      - Buttons840 4y ago
        Fair enough. But are we certain that renaissance watermelon were more like current watermelon than this picture portrays? How do we know? (I don't know the answer, but if someone wants to continue the thread, I'd be interested to read more.)
        boomboomsubban 4y ago
        Another Renaissance watermelon painting https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Abraham_Brueghel_-_A_still_life_of_a_watermelon,_cherries,_peaches,_apricots,_plums,_pomegranates_and_figs,_with_lilies,_roses,_morning_glory_and_other_flowers_on_an_acanthus_stone_relief.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Abraham_Brueghel_-_A... Some people disagree with this, but for more information look at https://imgur.com/a/zN8Kv https://imgur.com/a/zN8Kv
      - zdragnar 4y ago
        The surrealist movement grew out of Dada, which was a reaction to WW1 and the introduction of machine guns and mustard gas. "If this is what the pinnacle of science and reason has gotten us, we must undo it" Clock faces are always flat surfaces- wall clocks, wrist watches, sun dials, etc. The gears and hands require rigid, flat surfaces. If you're going to put a normal item in a surrealist painting, and choose a clock, making it a melting clock is essentially an obvious choice.
    - AngryData 4y ago
- markdown 4y ago
  Watermelon is grown from seed, so there can be variation with every single generation. Grapes are clones, grown with cuttings.
- derbOac 4y ago
  There have been changes in watermelons but that watermelon in the painting is in part an example of starring, which happens today: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-renaissance-painting-can-tell-us-about-modern-watermelons-180956155/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-renaissance-p...
- soperj 4y ago
  That's when they're not getting enough water... https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/8w7lke/i_guess_its_that_time_again_to_remind_people_that/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/8w7lke/i_guess_its_th...
marginalia_nu 4y ago
If the grape plant changed over 650 years, wouldn't we see a drift in the graph over those 650 years? What we're seeing is a sudden burst of "evolution" since the 1950s. Dunno, maybe it's the nuclear tests, but I'm a bit skeptical to that explanation.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  To be fair, there has been an explosion of evolution since the 1950s due modern agricultural practices and cultivation. For a striking example, look at the changes in chickens since the 1950s. https://miro.medium.com/max/639/0*hwEcw5y6Ky1vQkBi.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/639/0*hwEcw5y6Ky1vQkBi.jpeg
  - marginalia_nu 4y ago
    To be fair, humans have gone through similar visual change, but that's probably more to do with what we eat and how we live than genetics.
buildsjets 4y ago
Evolutionary adaptations? As this is a domesticated plant, shouldn't any changes be considered the product of intelligent design?
- waserwill 4y ago
  Domestication and breeding/husbandry aren't always done consciously, but even when they are, people produce selective pressures (e.g. selective breeding). Evolution is ambivalent to intelligent, conscious choice or natural selection, as long as the next generation's heritable traits are different.
SoftTalker 4y ago
650 years is not much on evolutionary time. But a lot depends on the selective pressures and the amount of mutation. IDK if much could be attributed to natural evolution, but I'm doubtful.
- dls2016 4y ago
  On one hand, named varieties are propagated via cloning (cuttings, tip rooting, air layering, tissue cultures, etc.) On the other hand, new fruit varieties are bred all the time. Human breeding programs can produce huge variations in a few decades. I have pluot trees that are hybrid species developed very recently. And think: 650 years ago, Europeans barely even heard of the tomato and potato! Human pressure on agriculture can both speed things up and slow them waaay down.
- missedthecue 4y ago
  650 years isn't much on evolutionary time for things with long lifespans. For plants, you can see serious adaptions in just a few years. Otherwise the entire occupation of horticulture wouldn't have existed.
cmrdporcupine 4y ago
Cultivated wine grapes haven't really "evolved", because they're propagated clonally. There are some mutations, but not significant enough to alter their response to the environment really. In fact it's a real problem because the nature around them has changed (new pathogens) but the plants have not. In fact, Pinot Noir that is grown in Beaune (in Burgundy) talked about in this article is one of the oldest selections and might go back as far Roman times. The Pinot Noir vines grown by the millions around the world are literally the same individual, cloned for probably 1200 years. There are new grape varieties being bred all the time (including by myself), including ones with crosses with American Vitis species that are far better adapted for newer fungal pathogens and weather conditions. And not just bred, crosses (inter and intra specific) happen in the wild, too. But in general they are not permitted in European viniculture, which is very conservative and has laws mandating specific varieties for specific regions, and even forbids genetics from "non-noble" species. In fact even when European breeding programs produce new varieties with inter-specific crosses, they still pretend to be "functionally" pure vinifera, just to get around laws written a century ago.
- dls2016 4y ago
  To piggyback: most berries, and fruits in general, are grown from clones.
- nkurz 4y ago
  You know more about this than I do, but I wonder whether the switch to grafting on American rootstocks in the late 1800's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_French_Wine_Blight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_French_Wine_Blight) might have had an effect on ripening dates. I don't know about grapes, but I think different rootstocks can have a significant effect on ripening dates for tree fruit. A quick search (which I've only skimmed) says this is true for grapes as well: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2016.00069/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2016.00069.... Do you happen to know if growers in Beune have switched to more modern faster ripening rootstocks?
  - cmrdporcupine 4y ago

I wonder if they should account for evolutionary adaptions in the grape plants. This article doesn't seem to touch on that but it seems like a species of plant could change a lot over 650 years!

readthenotes1 4y ago

Like the watermelon https://images.app.goo.gl/8miHX48hfcHZ3rGQ7 https://images.app.goo.gl/8miHX48hfcHZ3rGQ7 Or the chicken https://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/10/2/6875031/chickens-breeding-farming-boilers-giant https://www.vox.com/xpress/2014/10/2/6875031/chickens-breedi...

throwawaymaths 4y ago
Nah, that's just a watermelon at a different stage of ripeness. (I eat like five or six watermelons a year) I've gotten one like that, it's rare because we know how to pick em these days.
- markdown 4y ago
  The seeds are dark brown/black, so it's ripe. And you won't find a watermelon these days with swirls in it.
  - throwawaymaths 4y ago
    You can if you buy seeded watermelons? Here is a modern picture of a modern watermelon with slightly less dramatic swirls. If you had bought it a few weeks earlier the swirls would be more prominent: http://sites.psu.edu/siowfa15/wp-content/uploads/sites/29639/2015/12/watermelon.png http://sites.psu.edu/siowfa15/wp-content/uploads/sites/29639...
    - throwawaymaths 4y ago
      You can also see the swirls come out dramatically if you take a seeded watermelon and leave it in (a very cold, to avoid mold) fridge for a few weeks!
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    Nonsense. It isn't just a matter of ripeness, but also how many times the flower was pollinated. I got one from a friend's garden much like it last year.
- Buttons840 4y ago
  Wouldn't that be like me painting a bowl of fruit (a common thing to practice painting) full of green oranges and green bananas? Why did this renaissance painter decide to paint an unripened fruit cut and prepared for eating?
  - thfuran 4y ago
    I don't know, why did Dali paint melted clocks?
    - Buttons840 4y ago
      Fair enough. But are we certain that renaissance watermelon were more like current watermelon than this picture portrays? How do we know? (I don't know the answer, but if someone wants to continue the thread, I'd be interested to read more.)
      - boomboomsubban 4y ago
        Another Renaissance watermelon painting https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Abraham_Brueghel_-_A_still_life_of_a_watermelon,_cherries,_peaches,_apricots,_plums,_pomegranates_and_figs,_with_lilies,_roses,_morning_glory_and_other_flowers_on_an_acanthus_stone_relief.jpg https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Abraham_Brueghel_-_A... Some people disagree with this, but for more information look at https://imgur.com/a/zN8Kv https://imgur.com/a/zN8Kv
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      The surrealist movement grew out of Dada, which was a reaction to WW1 and the introduction of machine guns and mustard gas. "If this is what the pinnacle of science and reason has gotten us, we must undo it" Clock faces are always flat surfaces- wall clocks, wrist watches, sun dials, etc. The gears and hands require rigid, flat surfaces. If you're going to put a normal item in a surrealist painting, and choose a clock, making it a melting clock is essentially an obvious choice.
  - AngryData 4y ago
markdown 4y ago
Watermelon is grown from seed, so there can be variation with every single generation. Grapes are clones, grown with cuttings.
derbOac 4y ago
There have been changes in watermelons but that watermelon in the painting is in part an example of starring, which happens today: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-renaissance-painting-can-tell-us-about-modern-watermelons-180956155/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-renaissance-p...
soperj 4y ago
That's when they're not getting enough water... https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/8w7lke/i_guess_its_that_time_again_to_remind_people_that/ https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/8w7lke/i_guess_its_th...

marginalia_nu 4y ago

If the grape plant changed over 650 years, wouldn't we see a drift in the graph over those 650 years? What we're seeing is a sudden burst of "evolution" since the 1950s. Dunno, maybe it's the nuclear tests, but I'm a bit skeptical to that explanation.

s1artibartfast 4y ago
To be fair, there has been an explosion of evolution since the 1950s due modern agricultural practices and cultivation. For a striking example, look at the changes in chickens since the 1950s. https://miro.medium.com/max/639/0*hwEcw5y6Ky1vQkBi.jpeg https://miro.medium.com/max/639/0*hwEcw5y6Ky1vQkBi.jpeg
- marginalia_nu 4y ago
  To be fair, humans have gone through similar visual change, but that's probably more to do with what we eat and how we live than genetics.

buildsjets 4y ago

Evolutionary adaptations? As this is a domesticated plant, shouldn't any changes be considered the product of intelligent design?

waserwill 4y ago
Domestication and breeding/husbandry aren't always done consciously, but even when they are, people produce selective pressures (e.g. selective breeding). Evolution is ambivalent to intelligent, conscious choice or natural selection, as long as the next generation's heritable traits are different.

SoftTalker 4y ago

650 years is not much on evolutionary time. But a lot depends on the selective pressures and the amount of mutation. IDK if much could be attributed to natural evolution, but I'm doubtful.

dls2016 4y ago
On one hand, named varieties are propagated via cloning (cuttings, tip rooting, air layering, tissue cultures, etc.) On the other hand, new fruit varieties are bred all the time. Human breeding programs can produce huge variations in a few decades. I have pluot trees that are hybrid species developed very recently. And think: 650 years ago, Europeans barely even heard of the tomato and potato! Human pressure on agriculture can both speed things up and slow them waaay down.
missedthecue 4y ago
650 years isn't much on evolutionary time for things with long lifespans. For plants, you can see serious adaptions in just a few years. Otherwise the entire occupation of horticulture wouldn't have existed.

cmrdporcupine 4y ago

Cultivated wine grapes haven't really "evolved", because they're propagated clonally. There are some mutations, but not significant enough to alter their response to the environment really. In fact it's a real problem because the nature around them has changed (new pathogens) but the plants have not. In fact, Pinot Noir that is grown in Beaune (in Burgundy) talked about in this article is one of the oldest selections and might go back as far Roman times. The Pinot Noir vines grown by the millions around the world are literally the same individual, cloned for probably 1200 years. There are new grape varieties being bred all the time (including by myself), including ones with crosses with American Vitis species that are far better adapted for newer fungal pathogens and weather conditions. And not just bred, crosses (inter and intra specific) happen in the wild, too. But in general they are not permitted in European viniculture, which is very conservative and has laws mandating specific varieties for specific regions, and even forbids genetics from "non-noble" species. In fact even when European breeding programs produce new varieties with inter-specific crosses, they still pretend to be "functionally" pure vinifera, just to get around laws written a century ago.

dls2016 4y ago
To piggyback: most berries, and fruits in general, are grown from clones.
nkurz 4y ago
You know more about this than I do, but I wonder whether the switch to grafting on American rootstocks in the late 1800's (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_French_Wine_Blight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_French_Wine_Blight) might have had an effect on ripening dates. I don't know about grapes, but I think different rootstocks can have a significant effect on ripening dates for tree fruit. A quick search (which I've only skimmed) says this is true for grapes as well: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2016.00069/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpls.2016.00069.... Do you happen to know if growers in Beune have switched to more modern faster ripening rootstocks?
- cmrdporcupine 4y ago