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I just don't know what that would look like. If they try to take VISA's place, banks might block transfers to them making it impossible for people to pay their

I just don't know what that would look like. If they try to take VISA's place, banks might block transfers to them making it impossible for people to pay their tab. They could try switching to crypto but the value of those aren't really stable and somewhat risky in that sense. Onramps like Coinbase have to turn in or block users who are caught using the service to buy drugs or whatever and I don't see why they wouldn't block accounts known to be buying porn or monero too.

ravenstine 4y ago
If the only choice becomes to either make money or not, crypto may be the answer. Yeah, many creators and pr0n companies will tone down their content. But we all know that consumption of pr0n doesn't lead to more vanilla tastes. The more "deviant" acts will find ways to make revenue outside the mainstream and then all it will take is a critical mass for some digital currency to mean something.
- wollsmoth 4y ago
  Sure, but what I'm saying is that for most people, they'll need to buy the crypto with USD. Any time you're interacting with the regular banking system, it's possible to ban accounts who are buying illegal, or even just unseemly content. The only way really around it is if people start buying crypto with cash irl. This is a lot of friction for people. It may simply be easier to buy professional content from studios that only work with legal performers.
0xbadcafebee 4y ago
We need a federal law that indemnifies them from lawsuits as long as they drop a client after they have been convicted of a crime. That puts the onus on the plaintiff to prove that a customer has done wrong, and gives the bank/payment processor enough notice to remove that customer, rather than suing the bank/payment processor because someone might have done something wrong.
- wollsmoth 4y ago
  Well, that's tricky because then you have any number of corporations that could sell illegal content, and Visa would simply wait for a conviction which can take quite some time given how slow the legal system is. Making it Visa's responsibility forces them to be proactive. We're dealing with a case of illegal porn involving underage victims so I think that makes sense. Mindgeek has taken steps to fix the problem but maybe Visa isn't convinced that they've done enough.
  - 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
    But that's the whole problem! We go "underage victims!" and then stop thinking. We are focusing on the potential harm, without considering the actual harm. Our irrational fear of abuse is causing us to create abuse. By allowing policies that crack down on the entire sexwork industry, more women, children, trans people, etc are hurt, than are hurt by the actual criminals making child porn or sex trafficking. When everything goes underground and there is no well-regulated marketplace, people get exploited and abused. There's hundreds of interviews with sexworkers who all talk about how their work is more dangerous now. Pressuring Visa makes all porn go underground, which includes child porn and trafficking. That leads to more harm, because there's no visibility and no protection. If we didn't pressure Visa, and instead had a flourishing open market that was monitored, regulated and policed, it would be easier to notice the illegal activity and move to stop it. A Department of Sexwork could work directly with Visa and content creators to develop sophisticated methods to identify and stop illegal activity. But since it's harder to see abuse when everything is underground, politicians prefer it that way. If you don't notice the abuse happening, must not be happening; problem solved. No US politician will get voted out of office for banning sexwork, and Visa's bottom line won't get hurt either, even if it does result in more actual harm to people.
    - wollsmoth 4y ago
      I don't think that's what's happening. Visa is still usable on many other porn sites. The difference is a lot of the content on Pornhub is/was user uploaded and the process for documenting the legality of the content was a lot more loose. Commercial sites have everything very well documented and they know exactly who is in their content. If anything, Visa is pushing out user generated content in favor of more organized, glossy operations.

ravenstine 4y ago

If the only choice becomes to either make money or not, crypto may be the answer. Yeah, many creators and pr0n companies will tone down their content. But we all know that consumption of pr0n doesn't lead to more vanilla tastes. The more "deviant" acts will find ways to make revenue outside the mainstream and then all it will take is a critical mass for some digital currency to mean something.

wollsmoth 4y ago
Sure, but what I'm saying is that for most people, they'll need to buy the crypto with USD. Any time you're interacting with the regular banking system, it's possible to ban accounts who are buying illegal, or even just unseemly content. The only way really around it is if people start buying crypto with cash irl. This is a lot of friction for people. It may simply be easier to buy professional content from studios that only work with legal performers.

0xbadcafebee 4y ago

We need a federal law that indemnifies them from lawsuits as long as they drop a client after they have been convicted of a crime. That puts the onus on the plaintiff to prove that a customer has done wrong, and gives the bank/payment processor enough notice to remove that customer, rather than suing the bank/payment processor because someone might have done something wrong.

wollsmoth 4y ago
Well, that's tricky because then you have any number of corporations that could sell illegal content, and Visa would simply wait for a conviction which can take quite some time given how slow the legal system is. Making it Visa's responsibility forces them to be proactive. We're dealing with a case of illegal porn involving underage victims so I think that makes sense. Mindgeek has taken steps to fix the problem but maybe Visa isn't convinced that they've done enough.
- 0xbadcafebee 4y ago
  But that's the whole problem! We go "underage victims!" and then stop thinking. We are focusing on the potential harm, without considering the actual harm. Our irrational fear of abuse is causing us to create abuse. By allowing policies that crack down on the entire sexwork industry, more women, children, trans people, etc are hurt, than are hurt by the actual criminals making child porn or sex trafficking. When everything goes underground and there is no well-regulated marketplace, people get exploited and abused. There's hundreds of interviews with sexworkers who all talk about how their work is more dangerous now. Pressuring Visa makes all porn go underground, which includes child porn and trafficking. That leads to more harm, because there's no visibility and no protection. If we didn't pressure Visa, and instead had a flourishing open market that was monitored, regulated and policed, it would be easier to notice the illegal activity and move to stop it. A Department of Sexwork could work directly with Visa and content creators to develop sophisticated methods to identify and stop illegal activity. But since it's harder to see abuse when everything is underground, politicians prefer it that way. If you don't notice the abuse happening, must not be happening; problem solved. No US politician will get voted out of office for banning sexwork, and Visa's bottom line won't get hurt either, even if it does result in more actual harm to people.
  - wollsmoth 4y ago
    I don't think that's what's happening. Visa is still usable on many other porn sites. The difference is a lot of the content on Pornhub is/was user uploaded and the process for documenting the legality of the content was a lot more loose. Commercial sites have everything very well documented and they know exactly who is in their content. If anything, Visa is pushing out user generated content in favor of more organized, glossy operations.