4 ms·

No, but we also do not want private companies being in the business of facilitating illegal activity. We wouldn't expect UPS to deliver cocaine once they becom

No, but we also do not want private companies being in the business of facilitating illegal activity. We wouldn't expect UPS to deliver cocaine once they become aware that a particular customer is using UPS to ship drugs. Visa isn't obligated to investigate all of its customers, but once informed of wrongdoing it should take reasonable steps to distance itself.

stickfigure 4y ago
UPS is used to deliver illegal drugs. Visa is aware of this fact. Should they ban UPS?
- sandworm101 4y ago
  Yes. If a delivery company continues to do business with known drug dealers, refuses to stop once faced with reasonable evidence, then it is perfectly reasonable for Visa and everyone else to walk away.
  - actually_a_dog 4y ago
    "Reasonable evidence" according to whom?
    - sandworm101 4y ago
      There is no one definition. Each customer is free to use their own definition. If Visa doesn't like what a website is doing, Visa can walk away. If I don't agree with Visa's decision, I am free to walk away from Visa. I am also free to publicly criticize Visa. Each market actor is free to make their own decisions purely on their own interpretation of reasonableness.
      - nawgz 4y ago
        > If Visa doesn't like what a website is doing, Visa can walk away Right, which does massive damage to that website as Visa is part of a duopoly with a complete stranglehold on the market > If I don't agree with Visa's decision, I am free to walk away from Visa Ok, and if Mastercard follows suit, where do you go? The problem with essential services - monetary transmission, in this case - being monopolized by private companies is that your trite claim that "each party can walk away" is actually quite clearly untrue for the consumer in each such situation. Market actors should be free to make their own decisions, but monopoly and cartel situations need regulation to prevent consumer harm, and it's clear what this is.
        sandworm101 4y ago
        Cash? Paypal? Bitcoin? There may be no other equally-convenient form of card payment, but Visa doesn't have a stranglehold on financial transactions.
        nawgz 4y ago
        > Cash? This has to be intentionally obtuse, we're talking about online payment processors... > Bitcoin? So easy to use, so stable > PayPal Yes, you're right, in the US it's more of a tri-opoly than a duopoly - you'll note globally it's more of a duopoly. But that's pretty far from supporting claims like "Visa doesn't have a stranglehold on financial transactions". Visa and MasterCard usually move in some form of legal tandem from what I've seen, which returns us to the original point: arguing about idealistic "market" conditions in a captured, distinctly not-free market is foolish at best and intentionally misleading in this case.
        richbell 4y ago
        At the end of the day PayPal, Stripe, Square, etc. are beholden to Visa and MasterCard and not really competitors.
        stickfigure 4y ago
        Visa does indeed have a near-stranglehold on financial transactions, and the reason is that US governments make it nearly impossible to set up a competing financial transaction processing system. It's generally regarded on HN that it would be legally impossible to create Paypal today, and I believe this is accurate. There is a famous series of HN posts from some startup trying to get into this space (sorry, can't remember the details - maybe someone else can fill in). The horrorshow of getting "money transmitter licenses" and working through compliance issues in 50 different states (plus federal) made it impossible. There is not a free market for transaction processing in this country. A small handful of companies are grandfathered into what is effectively a government enforced monopoly. So they need to be treated like the quasi-public utilities they are.
  - ehsankia 4y ago
    > refuses to stop once faced with reasonable evidence That's implying that PH is doing nothing to stop it. There's a difference between there being a few handful of examples of cases slipping through the cracks, vs PH intentionally allowing it to happen. It's like Youtube, there will always be false positives and false negatives in their automatic and manual moderation. Online moderation is a hard problem, not a single platform has got a bulletproof solution.
  - stickfigure 4y ago
    UPS is used, rarely and without their consent, to illegally transmit drugs. Pornhub is used, rarely and without their consent, to illegally transmit child pornography. What sort of business are you in? I'm pretty sure that I can find a way that it facilitates some sort of illegal activity. Your HN profile says "Defense". Let's see now...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- csomar 4y ago
  Yes, they should ban UPS, Visa, all contracting companies that provided services to these two, and also the employees who worked for them. Just so that we are sure!
m00dy 4y ago
why cocaine is illegal ? Seriously, f*ck this world.
- Ekaros 4y ago
  Ethanol is already legal, why not go the whole way and legalize and regulate absolutely everything. Anything else is pure hypocrisy...
jonathan-adly 4y ago
Ok - I run a charity that makes is easier for illegal migrants to find housing and avoid deportation. This is illegal - should VISA cut me off?
- PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
  I have absolutely zero doubt that there are many people in the USA who would agree that VISA should cut you off.
- homonculus1 4y ago
  Yes...?
  - jonathan-adly 4y ago
    Ok - how about facilitating abortions in Texas? Selling imported insulin to diabetics?
    - homonculus1 4y ago
      Yes and yes
    - Ekaros 4y ago
      Is that imported insulin un-patented and FDA approved?
    - donkarma 4y ago
      nobody gives a shit about the ethics it's about the law
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- zo1 4y ago
  People answered you yes on all counts, and I agree. It's the law and if we want it to be different then we need to change it. Why complicate it anymore than that. Instead, this is us using extra legal and potentially illegal means to enact what we argue is change but is just propagating more chaos and unfairness all around.
duped 4y ago
> We wouldn't expect UPS to deliver cocaine once they become aware that a particular customer is using UPS to ship drugs. That's why you ship your drugs with the USPS. But this is more like mailing a check for drugs.
LorenPechtel 4y ago
Note that they're going after Visa over this. Not Mindgeek. That's because it never was about kiddie porn, it's about trying to block payment for porn in general. The case is highly deceptive, what actually happened: Pornhub used to permit anonymous uploading by amateurs. Yes, plenty of amateur stuff was posted, but with such a system of course some stuff slipped through that shouldn't--copyright, revenge and kiddie porn. When the problem came to light Pornhub deleted all the stuff that didn't have a proven identity. (And the US standards for proof on porn are too high. They're fine for a big studio but impossible for amateurs and they preclude any attempt to keep identities secret.) Only a sliver of the 80% of their database that got deleted was kiddie porn and note that not all kiddie porn is sexual abuse anyway--some of it is just teens being stupid.
- sandworm101 4y ago
  >> all kiddie porn is sexual abuse anyway Child, Pornography and Abuse ... each definition requires a multi-hour lecture at any law school. One can debate the definition of "child" for days without coming to any firm conclusion. But many states have very exacting laws, backed up by draconian punishments. It it perfectly reasonable for large corporations to take an equally harsh approach. The punishments for being "in possession" of such material are so dangerous that instantly deleting entire accounts/databases will be seen as reasonable business judgement. But I guess that is the point of such punishments. They are designed scare everyone into acting without hesitation.
  - LorenPechtel 4y ago
    Yeah, but that doesn't address my point--that not all kiddie porn is sexual abuse. Some of it is just teenagers being stupid filming themselves, no abuse involved.
- _trampeltier 4y ago
  When Pornhub deleted that much content the true (unspoken) reason was a diffrent one. Before Wirecard did make the moneytransfer for Pornub. But as we all now, Wirecard stopped to exist and sold some bussines parts. It was exactly the same time, when parts from Wirecard got sold again. I'm pretty sure in the new contract was something like you can't have anonymous uploads at all.
zamadatix 4y ago
I don't want companies actively facilitating illegal activity but at the same time I don't want it to be on private entities to determine when someone is too criminal to do generic business with. If Mindgeeks ads are so criminal they shouldn't be allowed then the justice department needs to declare that directly, it shouldn't fall on payment processors to solve.

stickfigure 4y ago

UPS is used to deliver illegal drugs. Visa is aware of this fact. Should they ban UPS?

sandworm101 4y ago
Yes. If a delivery company continues to do business with known drug dealers, refuses to stop once faced with reasonable evidence, then it is perfectly reasonable for Visa and everyone else to walk away.
- actually_a_dog 4y ago
  "Reasonable evidence" according to whom?
  - sandworm101 4y ago
    There is no one definition. Each customer is free to use their own definition. If Visa doesn't like what a website is doing, Visa can walk away. If I don't agree with Visa's decision, I am free to walk away from Visa. I am also free to publicly criticize Visa. Each market actor is free to make their own decisions purely on their own interpretation of reasonableness.
    - nawgz 4y ago
      > If Visa doesn't like what a website is doing, Visa can walk away Right, which does massive damage to that website as Visa is part of a duopoly with a complete stranglehold on the market > If I don't agree with Visa's decision, I am free to walk away from Visa Ok, and if Mastercard follows suit, where do you go? The problem with essential services - monetary transmission, in this case - being monopolized by private companies is that your trite claim that "each party can walk away" is actually quite clearly untrue for the consumer in each such situation. Market actors should be free to make their own decisions, but monopoly and cartel situations need regulation to prevent consumer harm, and it's clear what this is.
      - sandworm101 4y ago
        Cash? Paypal? Bitcoin? There may be no other equally-convenient form of card payment, but Visa doesn't have a stranglehold on financial transactions.
        nawgz 4y ago
        > Cash? This has to be intentionally obtuse, we're talking about online payment processors... > Bitcoin? So easy to use, so stable > PayPal Yes, you're right, in the US it's more of a tri-opoly than a duopoly - you'll note globally it's more of a duopoly. But that's pretty far from supporting claims like "Visa doesn't have a stranglehold on financial transactions". Visa and MasterCard usually move in some form of legal tandem from what I've seen, which returns us to the original point: arguing about idealistic "market" conditions in a captured, distinctly not-free market is foolish at best and intentionally misleading in this case.
        richbell 4y ago
        At the end of the day PayPal, Stripe, Square, etc. are beholden to Visa and MasterCard and not really competitors.
        stickfigure 4y ago
        Visa does indeed have a near-stranglehold on financial transactions, and the reason is that US governments make it nearly impossible to set up a competing financial transaction processing system. It's generally regarded on HN that it would be legally impossible to create Paypal today, and I believe this is accurate. There is a famous series of HN posts from some startup trying to get into this space (sorry, can't remember the details - maybe someone else can fill in). The horrorshow of getting "money transmitter licenses" and working through compliance issues in 50 different states (plus federal) made it impossible. There is not a free market for transaction processing in this country. A small handful of companies are grandfathered into what is effectively a government enforced monopoly. So they need to be treated like the quasi-public utilities they are.
- ehsankia 4y ago
  > refuses to stop once faced with reasonable evidence That's implying that PH is doing nothing to stop it. There's a difference between there being a few handful of examples of cases slipping through the cracks, vs PH intentionally allowing it to happen. It's like Youtube, there will always be false positives and false negatives in their automatic and manual moderation. Online moderation is a hard problem, not a single platform has got a bulletproof solution.
- stickfigure 4y ago
  UPS is used, rarely and without their consent, to illegally transmit drugs. Pornhub is used, rarely and without their consent, to illegally transmit child pornography. What sort of business are you in? I'm pretty sure that I can find a way that it facilitates some sort of illegal activity. Your HN profile says "Defense". Let's see now...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
csomar 4y ago
Yes, they should ban UPS, Visa, all contracting companies that provided services to these two, and also the employees who worked for them. Just so that we are sure!

m00dy 4y ago

why cocaine is illegal ? Seriously, f*ck this world.

Ekaros 4y ago
Ethanol is already legal, why not go the whole way and legalize and regulate absolutely everything. Anything else is pure hypocrisy...

jonathan-adly 4y ago

Ok - I run a charity that makes is easier for illegal migrants to find housing and avoid deportation. This is illegal - should VISA cut me off?

PaulDavisThe1st 4y ago
I have absolutely zero doubt that there are many people in the USA who would agree that VISA should cut you off.
homonculus1 4y ago
Yes...?
- jonathan-adly 4y ago
  Ok - how about facilitating abortions in Texas? Selling imported insulin to diabetics?
  - homonculus1 4y ago
    Yes and yes
  - Ekaros 4y ago
    Is that imported insulin un-patented and FDA approved?
  - donkarma 4y ago
    nobody gives a shit about the ethics it's about the law
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
zo1 4y ago
People answered you yes on all counts, and I agree. It's the law and if we want it to be different then we need to change it. Why complicate it anymore than that. Instead, this is us using extra legal and potentially illegal means to enact what we argue is change but is just propagating more chaos and unfairness all around.

duped 4y ago

> We wouldn't expect UPS to deliver cocaine once they become aware that a particular customer is using UPS to ship drugs. That's why you ship your drugs with the USPS. But this is more like mailing a check for drugs.

LorenPechtel 4y ago

Note that they're going after Visa over this. Not Mindgeek. That's because it never was about kiddie porn, it's about trying to block payment for porn in general. The case is highly deceptive, what actually happened: Pornhub used to permit anonymous uploading by amateurs. Yes, plenty of amateur stuff was posted, but with such a system of course some stuff slipped through that shouldn't--copyright, revenge and kiddie porn. When the problem came to light Pornhub deleted all the stuff that didn't have a proven identity. (And the US standards for proof on porn are too high. They're fine for a big studio but impossible for amateurs and they preclude any attempt to keep identities secret.) Only a sliver of the 80% of their database that got deleted was kiddie porn and note that not all kiddie porn is sexual abuse anyway--some of it is just teens being stupid.

sandworm101 4y ago
>> all kiddie porn is sexual abuse anyway Child, Pornography and Abuse ... each definition requires a multi-hour lecture at any law school. One can debate the definition of "child" for days without coming to any firm conclusion. But many states have very exacting laws, backed up by draconian punishments. It it perfectly reasonable for large corporations to take an equally harsh approach. The punishments for being "in possession" of such material are so dangerous that instantly deleting entire accounts/databases will be seen as reasonable business judgement. But I guess that is the point of such punishments. They are designed scare everyone into acting without hesitation.
- LorenPechtel 4y ago
  Yeah, but that doesn't address my point--that not all kiddie porn is sexual abuse. Some of it is just teenagers being stupid filming themselves, no abuse involved.
_trampeltier 4y ago
When Pornhub deleted that much content the true (unspoken) reason was a diffrent one. Before Wirecard did make the moneytransfer for Pornub. But as we all now, Wirecard stopped to exist and sold some bussines parts. It was exactly the same time, when parts from Wirecard got sold again. I'm pretty sure in the new contract was something like you can't have anonymous uploads at all.

zamadatix 4y ago

I don't want companies actively facilitating illegal activity but at the same time I don't want it to be on private entities to determine when someone is too criminal to do generic business with. If Mindgeeks ads are so criminal they shouldn't be allowed then the justice department needs to declare that directly, it shouldn't fall on payment processors to solve.