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I can relate to a lot of this, I was pretty stinking poor growing up. Now I make good money. (I still buy used tires from shady lots tho). But even now that I'

I can relate to a lot of this, I was pretty stinking poor growing up. Now I make good money. (I still buy used tires from shady lots tho). But even now that I'm making good money, it boggles my mind how richer everyone else still seems. Like, how do so many young people have a favorite island in Hawaii? How is everyone out there affording new cars? People actually picked a college major without thinking about cost? One thing I have to constantly wrap my head around is that being broke doesn't correlate to income. I have a family and a mortgage and savings and nothing left over for luxuries at the end of the month. But someone working as a bartender can afford a new Jeep and go to Vegas 4x a year because they have a good roommate situation and they are due to inherit their parent's second house one day.

h4waii 4y ago
All platitudes aside, comparison really is the thief of joy. Lots of people have very different situations from what they project (witting or unwittingly), they might be running up debt to pay for their lifestyle or maybe they have profitable small side businesses, and bartend for the bills and social aspect. Focus on your journey, and where you are on the path, don't get distracted with people "passing" you on shorter, longer, or completely different paths.
- legitster 4y ago
  Certainly. My point was largely that poor vs wealthy is often hard to actually tell. In the case of the bartender, this wasn't actually a hypothetical: I have more than one friend in this exact situation - they got one good inheritance, are waiting on another, and in the meantime live rent free at a parent's property. In both instances they even get aid from the state. While they appear poor on paper (and they often describe themselves as poor), they have tremendous resources at their disposal.
- zcw100 4y ago
  I know someone who was doing the equivalent of the bartending thing. Her grandfather was loaded and all major expenses taken care of. She kept it quiet but would give coworkers a ton of shit for general life things that she didn’t have to worry about. “sorry I’m late I had a flat tire.” “That’s not an excuse. You should have found a way to get new tires so you’re not late like me.”
commandlinefan 4y ago
I couldn't help but do the same thing when I was reading the article, in the opposite direction: "wait - you had a wife and you were poor?" When I was young and my income was low or nonexistent, it seemed like women could smell the poverty on me and I couldn't even get close to them. It was like trying to sneak up on a grazing gazelle - they'd hear me coming and just sprint to a safe distance. The more money I made, the closer I could get until I finally made enough money that they stayed close enough to talk to. Even now, married 20 years, the author talks about the burden on his wife and kids if he went back to being poor - I'm sure my wife would just leave if I was genuinely stuck in a poverty cycle with no way of getting out, and I wouldn't really blame her.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- lscdlscd 4y ago
  That's a very sad way to view the world and people.
  - hallway_monitor 4y ago
    Why would it be sad? Women are attracted to security and success. Men are attracted to good genetics expressed physically.
    - the_only_law 4y ago
      Since we're tossing random anecdotes, everyone I know in a happy relationship makes less than me. I'm suppose if I was properly rich and flaunted it, certain women would suddenly be interested, but no person I'd marry.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      Women may, overall, tend to have a different relationship to security and success than men tend to. Simplifying it to "they are attracted to those things" doesn't align with my experiences though. This worldview is limiting, even insulting, to both men and women though and you should try not having it.
hnaccount141 4y ago
> Like, how do so many young people have a favorite island in Hawaii? How is everyone out there affording new cars? The reality is that oftentimes they simply can't, at least according to a responsible definition of "afford". All we see from the outside is the brand new Jeep, we don't see the fact that they're underwater on a 72 month loan with 6% interest. The average car loan term in 2019 was 69 months, that's insane. Something like 30% of trade ins have negative equity. Even ignoring debt, I've spoken to a surprising number of people who make great money and live lavishly but have effectively no retirement savings. The level of financial literacy in the US is abysmal.
- reactspa 4y ago
  > Something like 30% of trade ins have negative equity Could you please clarify what this means. E.g., A car "X" is traded in for a car "Y". X gets a trade-in-value of $2,000. That is, the cost to buy Y is reduced by 2,000. Where does the negative-equity in your point apply here please? Thanks.
  - legitster 4y ago
    Your old car has more debt left on it than you get in the trade-in. The dealership gives me 10k, but it still has a 12k loan on it. So on top of the cost of the new car, I am still out $2k.
    - rainbowzootsuit 4y ago
      We can help you out and roll that into the loan for the new car.
- wnissen 4y ago
  I would strengthen your statement to say that almost everyone can't afford it. Median household income is around $67K in the US, and the median household assets (minus the house) at age 65-69 is $75K. So even if a third of your income is being replaced by social security, a typical household has not even two years of income saved. A 25th percentile household has less than 5 months! Most people save basically nothing, on net. Even 75th percentile households only have 4 years of income. Assuming reasonable investment returns, that's only saving 2.5% on average. Pensions aren't expensive, retirement is expensive! People, even ones who can easily afford it, often won't save. https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-net-worth-percentiles-by-age/ https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-net-worth-percentiles-b...
davemp 4y ago
These people are likely not maxing out their 401ks and are borrowing their current luxuries from their future selves. Comparing finances to others without actually having all the information isn’t worthwhile.
ishjoh 4y ago
I struggled with this as well and then I started asking people about it, I grew up lower middle class and there were some very rough stretches of time during my childhood. What I've observed: 1) They're not saving for retirement. $0. 2) They spend a lot using credit. New vehicles with 2k down and high monthly payments. High monthly credit card bills. 3) They have a lot of stuff but are essentially living pay cheque to pay cheque. One thing that surprised me was working at a company that got acquired and payroll got moved to the parent company which had a pay schedule that was 1 week later, so they told us we would get paid one week later than we had historically. Inconvenient, but no problem for me. Out of an office of about 40 people 15 said they wouldn't be able to pay their bills. These were all people who made over 6 figures. Another thing I've noticed is that many people don't look at absolute price but instead look at monthly payment, I think raising interest rates are going to hurt a lot of people that from the outside seem to have a dream life.
sershe 4y ago
I am sorta in the same boat, because I grew up relatively poor I'm paranoid so I save/invest a lot and drive a Honda while my coworkers complain of dealer markups on their new Porsche :) It would be a real bummer if civilization collapses and it would all be for nothing, but otherwise I hope to FIRE in a few years...
rufus_foreman 4y ago
I read all of this in Rodney Dangerfield's voice.
JamesBarney 4y ago
> One thing I have to constantly wrap my head around is that being broke doesn't correlate to income. I have a family and a mortgage and savings and nothing left over for luxuries at the end of the month. But someone working as a bartender can afford a new Jeep and go to Vegas 4x a year because they have a good roommate situation and they are due to inherit their parent's second house one day. I feel like we don't count our own responsible expenses but double count other people's luxury expenses. A new jeep is maybe 6k/yr. A trip to Vegas is maybe 1k. That's maybe a total 12k/yr If you're mortgage is 3k a month and he's paying 500 a month in rent, you throw in two kids @ $1,000 a month and maybe 500/month in savings and you're looking at 66k in expenses which dwarfs the 12k.

h4waii 4y ago

All platitudes aside, comparison really is the thief of joy. Lots of people have very different situations from what they project (witting or unwittingly), they might be running up debt to pay for their lifestyle or maybe they have profitable small side businesses, and bartend for the bills and social aspect. Focus on your journey, and where you are on the path, don't get distracted with people "passing" you on shorter, longer, or completely different paths.

legitster 4y ago
Certainly. My point was largely that poor vs wealthy is often hard to actually tell. In the case of the bartender, this wasn't actually a hypothetical: I have more than one friend in this exact situation - they got one good inheritance, are waiting on another, and in the meantime live rent free at a parent's property. In both instances they even get aid from the state. While they appear poor on paper (and they often describe themselves as poor), they have tremendous resources at their disposal.
zcw100 4y ago
I know someone who was doing the equivalent of the bartending thing. Her grandfather was loaded and all major expenses taken care of. She kept it quiet but would give coworkers a ton of shit for general life things that she didn’t have to worry about. “sorry I’m late I had a flat tire.” “That’s not an excuse. You should have found a way to get new tires so you’re not late like me.”

commandlinefan 4y ago

I couldn't help but do the same thing when I was reading the article, in the opposite direction: "wait - you had a wife and you were poor?" When I was young and my income was low or nonexistent, it seemed like women could smell the poverty on me and I couldn't even get close to them. It was like trying to sneak up on a grazing gazelle - they'd hear me coming and just sprint to a safe distance. The more money I made, the closer I could get until I finally made enough money that they stayed close enough to talk to. Even now, married 20 years, the author talks about the burden on his wife and kids if he went back to being poor - I'm sure my wife would just leave if I was genuinely stuck in a poverty cycle with no way of getting out, and I wouldn't really blame her.

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
lscdlscd 4y ago
That's a very sad way to view the world and people.
- hallway_monitor 4y ago
  Why would it be sad? Women are attracted to security and success. Men are attracted to good genetics expressed physically.
  - the_only_law 4y ago
    Since we're tossing random anecdotes, everyone I know in a happy relationship makes less than me. I'm suppose if I was properly rich and flaunted it, certain women would suddenly be interested, but no person I'd marry.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    Women may, overall, tend to have a different relationship to security and success than men tend to. Simplifying it to "they are attracted to those things" doesn't align with my experiences though. This worldview is limiting, even insulting, to both men and women though and you should try not having it.

hnaccount141 4y ago

> Like, how do so many young people have a favorite island in Hawaii? How is everyone out there affording new cars? The reality is that oftentimes they simply can't, at least according to a responsible definition of "afford". All we see from the outside is the brand new Jeep, we don't see the fact that they're underwater on a 72 month loan with 6% interest. The average car loan term in 2019 was 69 months, that's insane. Something like 30% of trade ins have negative equity. Even ignoring debt, I've spoken to a surprising number of people who make great money and live lavishly but have effectively no retirement savings. The level of financial literacy in the US is abysmal.

reactspa 4y ago
> Something like 30% of trade ins have negative equity Could you please clarify what this means. E.g., A car "X" is traded in for a car "Y". X gets a trade-in-value of $2,000. That is, the cost to buy Y is reduced by 2,000. Where does the negative-equity in your point apply here please? Thanks.
- legitster 4y ago
  Your old car has more debt left on it than you get in the trade-in. The dealership gives me 10k, but it still has a 12k loan on it. So on top of the cost of the new car, I am still out $2k.
  - rainbowzootsuit 4y ago
    We can help you out and roll that into the loan for the new car.
wnissen 4y ago
I would strengthen your statement to say that almost everyone can't afford it. Median household income is around $67K in the US, and the median household assets (minus the house) at age 65-69 is $75K. So even if a third of your income is being replaced by social security, a typical household has not even two years of income saved. A 25th percentile household has less than 5 months! Most people save basically nothing, on net. Even 75th percentile households only have 4 years of income. Assuming reasonable investment returns, that's only saving 2.5% on average. Pensions aren't expensive, retirement is expensive! People, even ones who can easily afford it, often won't save. https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/household-income-percentile-calculator/ https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-net-worth-percentiles-by-age/ https://dqydj.com/average-median-top-net-worth-percentiles-b...

davemp 4y ago

These people are likely not maxing out their 401ks and are borrowing their current luxuries from their future selves. Comparing finances to others without actually having all the information isn’t worthwhile.

ishjoh 4y ago

I struggled with this as well and then I started asking people about it, I grew up lower middle class and there were some very rough stretches of time during my childhood. What I've observed: 1) They're not saving for retirement. $0. 2) They spend a lot using credit. New vehicles with 2k down and high monthly payments. High monthly credit card bills. 3) They have a lot of stuff but are essentially living pay cheque to pay cheque. One thing that surprised me was working at a company that got acquired and payroll got moved to the parent company which had a pay schedule that was 1 week later, so they told us we would get paid one week later than we had historically. Inconvenient, but no problem for me. Out of an office of about 40 people 15 said they wouldn't be able to pay their bills. These were all people who made over 6 figures. Another thing I've noticed is that many people don't look at absolute price but instead look at monthly payment, I think raising interest rates are going to hurt a lot of people that from the outside seem to have a dream life.

sershe 4y ago

I am sorta in the same boat, because I grew up relatively poor I'm paranoid so I save/invest a lot and drive a Honda while my coworkers complain of dealer markups on their new Porsche :) It would be a real bummer if civilization collapses and it would all be for nothing, but otherwise I hope to FIRE in a few years...

rufus_foreman 4y ago

I read all of this in Rodney Dangerfield's voice.

JamesBarney 4y ago

> One thing I have to constantly wrap my head around is that being broke doesn't correlate to income. I have a family and a mortgage and savings and nothing left over for luxuries at the end of the month. But someone working as a bartender can afford a new Jeep and go to Vegas 4x a year because they have a good roommate situation and they are due to inherit their parent's second house one day. I feel like we don't count our own responsible expenses but double count other people's luxury expenses. A new jeep is maybe 6k/yr. A trip to Vegas is maybe 1k. That's maybe a total 12k/yr If you're mortgage is 3k a month and he's paying 500 a month in rent, you throw in two kids @ $1,000 a month and maybe 500/month in savings and you're looking at 66k in expenses which dwarfs the 12k.