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Having a gay CEO in times of re-emerging bigotry and homophobic oppression probably does help make Apple genuinely committed to some privacy for its own sake, a

Having a gay CEO in times of re-emerging bigotry and homophobic oppression probably does help make Apple genuinely committed to some privacy for its own sake, and its revenue model does give it more latitude to serve the needs of customers. But at the same time when it comes to advertising, it's clear that Apple has the same sense of self-serving "we mean private between you and us, not private to you. Total coincidence that that means we can build a walled garden around our ad platform" that is an industry norm in the US. I recently unlocked my iPad mini while staying in downtown Boston. Right there on the Home Screen was a geo-based app suggestion for Dunkin' Donuts. It felt very wrong, like when a Smart TV tries to give you a suggestion. I don't want my iPad spying on me. I've never used the Dunkin' Donuts app and had no interest. Apple had clearly used my location to target me with a suggestion. That told me everything I need to know about how far they are willing to push privacy.

tobylane 4y ago
But did Dunkin’ Donuts learn your address and buying habits when it paid for that advert? Apple could be serving you accurate ads that rely on collected data, while only telling DD that an ad was sold to Apple’s idea of a relevant viewer and let them judge if they want to buy more. I think we need to distinguish this, perhaps you are with the walled garden spying. Do you trust the option to reset your advertiser ID?
- colmmacc 4y ago
  You're most likely right about what Dunkin' Donuts know. I'm less confident about what Apple themselves know. Apple have people talented enough that they can build a privacy-preserving back-end too so that their operators and staff have no way to know where I was. I hope that is how it works, but I've never seen it explained that way. If Apple end up on the wrong end of broad subpoenas to find out who was near abortion clinics ... getting better recommendations for donuts wasn't worth it.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    > Apple end up on the wrong end of broad subpoenas to find out who was near abortion clinics I would be more concerned about ATT/Verizon/T-Mobile, who have real-time data on where every connected phone is all the time and a FISA court can always serve them with a secret warrant. Also, what you are describing is not Dunkin paying Apple for an advertisement. If it is, then it would be huge news that Apple is pushing non Apple ads to its devices.
    - lmm 4y ago
      > who have real-time data on where every connected phone is all the time Not really. They know which mast it's connected to and can do signal strength triangulation. Their location info is a lot less good than what the device makers with wifi map data can give you, hence why every so often we get a news story about how Uber knows where you are a lot better than a 911 operator does.
codyb 4y ago
I just turn off all the toggles for personalized suggestions from Siri and targeted advertising and don't worry about it? I don't receive anything targeted to me as far as I've seen. I believe the toggles are fairly visible under Settings > Siri, and then I'd probably search for Privacy and Advertising and do toggles there too. To be fair, I rarely have location services turned on either. Mostly just cause I enjoy looking at the maps more than I enjoy getting directions as opposed to a big concern about being tracked. I find I learn the areas I'm in better that way.
smoldesu 4y ago
As a gay individual, I have genuinely no idea how you're conflating an openly gay CEO with a responsibility to create private products.
- colmmacc 4y ago
  Tim Cook emphasizes personal privacy in every interview I've seen with him, and he seems genuinely affected and passionate about it. He's also backed tough fights with the FBI and DoJ. I don't mean to reduce a gay person to their sexuality, and I'm no psychoanalyst, but every person I know who was a gay adult in the 80s and 90s has a very personal sense of how important privacy is and it has a very material color to it.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    Well maybe Tim Cook could turn over a new leaf by refusing to help China hunt down ethnic and sexual minorities in their country. Maybe show a little backbone, if this is something he feels strongly about.
    - dymk 4y ago
      How is he helping China hunt down those groups?
      - smoldesu 4y ago
        https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/10/22826695/apple-china-mou-275-billion-tim-cook-icloud https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/10/22826695/apple-china-mou... It's an open secret that Chinese authorities have access to all domestic iCloud data without a warrant, which is often used to profile political dissidents and the Uighur populations that Apple relies on to build their iPhones. This is only possible because Tim Cook agreed to move the nation's iCloud datacenters into Chinese territory. So, when Tim Cook says "Privacy is a human right", what he apparently implies is that not all humans are created equal. It's certainly an ugly hill to die on, but it also makes it incredibly hard to believe that Apple has an ideological attachment to privacy when they bend over backwards for China more than any other FAANG member.
wrs 4y ago
That sounds like a location-based app suggestion, not an ad. iOS will suggest an app that is used a lot at your current location. (Edit: Siri uses other signals as well to suggest apps. You can turn off the whole thing by removing “Siri App Suggestions” from your lock screen.)
- cr__ 4y ago
  That’s an ad.
  - dwaite 4y ago
    In the sense that you’d see a big sign for Duncan Donuts if you were standing in front of the store, yes.
    - rchaud 4y ago
      That's signage. No different from you adding a homescreen shortcut to a website, or a pin on a map.
  - calderwoodra 4y ago
    Only if they're being paid to show it - which I'm not sure is the case here.
    - oneoff786 4y ago
      If the app is monetized then apple makes money if you use the app. It’s in apple’s interest to advertise things to you. Doesn’t matter if it’s paid for.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        How is Apple making money from a company that makes a free app and sells physical goods?
        4y ago
Willamin 4y ago
Any chance that was a location based App Clip suggestion in your Siri App Suggestions home screen widget? That or the App Store widget (which is essentially a banner ad widget) are the only reasons I can imagine where: 1. You don't have the Dunkin' Donuts app installed 2. You saw the Dunkin' Donuts app icon on your homescreen --- If it's an App Clip suggestion in your Siri App Suggestions widget, you can disable this behavior in a couple of places (depending on what you care about): * Settings > Siri & Search > App Clips > Suggest App Clips * Settings > Privacy & Security > Location Services > System Services > Location-Based Suggestions --- I don't mean to suggest that Apple is free and clear of guilt. They often add new options with their preferred value as the default – rather than a user-focused default. However, I don't think this is caused by advertisements in the same way that Smart TVs suggest things.
spaetzleesser 4y ago
“Having a gay CEO in times of re-emerging bigotry and homophobic oppression probably does help make Apple genuinely committed to some privacy for its own sake,” I doubt that. He will use his billions to get privacy for himself while the users will be used for profits.
- agumonkey 4y ago
  He might still be a lot more sensitive to this subject than the average people.
  - smoldesu 4y ago
    Occam's Razor suggests that marketing explains it better than "he's gay so he must like privacy". By that line of logic, it's equally possible that he is sensitive to privacy because he has a cocaine addiction. This kind of mental gymnastics gets me so fired-up on HN; there are people so convinced that $BIGCORP is benevolent that they'll refute other people's arguments by assuming things on something as arbitrary as sexuality. There's no putting the cat back in the bag now, every single FAANG member is completely compliant with the NSA's surveillance program. There's been an overwhelming number of leaks and whistleblowers over the past few dozen years, and we still have no decent refutation for PRISM. Privacy is not a luxury that can be offered by a US-based company, especially not at that scale.
    - agumonkey 4y ago
      You read too much into my words. And sexuality is far from being arbitrary. I'm not saying cook drives the company on this factor. But I'll bet solid money that he his leagues above straight CEOs on term of being aware of privacy reach.
warcher 4y ago
I feel obliged to push back on the "gay people would respect privacy better" narrative with a couple notable counterexamples. J. Edgar Hoover and Roy Cohn. I have to add that attributing virtue or vice based on nothing but personal demographics in this fashion is overwhelmingly likely to lead you to some bad conclusions.

tobylane 4y ago

But did Dunkin’ Donuts learn your address and buying habits when it paid for that advert? Apple could be serving you accurate ads that rely on collected data, while only telling DD that an ad was sold to Apple’s idea of a relevant viewer and let them judge if they want to buy more. I think we need to distinguish this, perhaps you are with the walled garden spying. Do you trust the option to reset your advertiser ID?

colmmacc 4y ago
You're most likely right about what Dunkin' Donuts know. I'm less confident about what Apple themselves know. Apple have people talented enough that they can build a privacy-preserving back-end too so that their operators and staff have no way to know where I was. I hope that is how it works, but I've never seen it explained that way. If Apple end up on the wrong end of broad subpoenas to find out who was near abortion clinics ... getting better recommendations for donuts wasn't worth it.
- lotsofpulp 4y ago
  > Apple end up on the wrong end of broad subpoenas to find out who was near abortion clinics I would be more concerned about ATT/Verizon/T-Mobile, who have real-time data on where every connected phone is all the time and a FISA court can always serve them with a secret warrant. Also, what you are describing is not Dunkin paying Apple for an advertisement. If it is, then it would be huge news that Apple is pushing non Apple ads to its devices.
  - lmm 4y ago
    > who have real-time data on where every connected phone is all the time Not really. They know which mast it's connected to and can do signal strength triangulation. Their location info is a lot less good than what the device makers with wifi map data can give you, hence why every so often we get a news story about how Uber knows where you are a lot better than a 911 operator does.

codyb 4y ago

I just turn off all the toggles for personalized suggestions from Siri and targeted advertising and don't worry about it? I don't receive anything targeted to me as far as I've seen. I believe the toggles are fairly visible under Settings > Siri, and then I'd probably search for Privacy and Advertising and do toggles there too. To be fair, I rarely have location services turned on either. Mostly just cause I enjoy looking at the maps more than I enjoy getting directions as opposed to a big concern about being tracked. I find I learn the areas I'm in better that way.

smoldesu 4y ago

As a gay individual, I have genuinely no idea how you're conflating an openly gay CEO with a responsibility to create private products.

colmmacc 4y ago
Tim Cook emphasizes personal privacy in every interview I've seen with him, and he seems genuinely affected and passionate about it. He's also backed tough fights with the FBI and DoJ. I don't mean to reduce a gay person to their sexuality, and I'm no psychoanalyst, but every person I know who was a gay adult in the 80s and 90s has a very personal sense of how important privacy is and it has a very material color to it.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Well maybe Tim Cook could turn over a new leaf by refusing to help China hunt down ethnic and sexual minorities in their country. Maybe show a little backbone, if this is something he feels strongly about.
  - dymk 4y ago
    How is he helping China hunt down those groups?
    - smoldesu 4y ago
      https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/10/22826695/apple-china-mou-275-billion-tim-cook-icloud https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/10/22826695/apple-china-mou... It's an open secret that Chinese authorities have access to all domestic iCloud data without a warrant, which is often used to profile political dissidents and the Uighur populations that Apple relies on to build their iPhones. This is only possible because Tim Cook agreed to move the nation's iCloud datacenters into Chinese territory. So, when Tim Cook says "Privacy is a human right", what he apparently implies is that not all humans are created equal. It's certainly an ugly hill to die on, but it also makes it incredibly hard to believe that Apple has an ideological attachment to privacy when they bend over backwards for China more than any other FAANG member.

wrs 4y ago

That sounds like a location-based app suggestion, not an ad. iOS will suggest an app that is used a lot at your current location. (Edit: Siri uses other signals as well to suggest apps. You can turn off the whole thing by removing “Siri App Suggestions” from your lock screen.)

cr__ 4y ago
That’s an ad.
- dwaite 4y ago
  In the sense that you’d see a big sign for Duncan Donuts if you were standing in front of the store, yes.
  - rchaud 4y ago
    That's signage. No different from you adding a homescreen shortcut to a website, or a pin on a map.
- calderwoodra 4y ago
  Only if they're being paid to show it - which I'm not sure is the case here.
  - oneoff786 4y ago
    If the app is monetized then apple makes money if you use the app. It’s in apple’s interest to advertise things to you. Doesn’t matter if it’s paid for.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      How is Apple making money from a company that makes a free app and sells physical goods?
      - 4y ago

Willamin 4y ago

Any chance that was a location based App Clip suggestion in your Siri App Suggestions home screen widget? That or the App Store widget (which is essentially a banner ad widget) are the only reasons I can imagine where: 1. You don't have the Dunkin' Donuts app installed 2. You saw the Dunkin' Donuts app icon on your homescreen --- If it's an App Clip suggestion in your Siri App Suggestions widget, you can disable this behavior in a couple of places (depending on what you care about): * Settings > Siri & Search > App Clips > Suggest App Clips * Settings > Privacy & Security > Location Services > System Services > Location-Based Suggestions --- I don't mean to suggest that Apple is free and clear of guilt. They often add new options with their preferred value as the default – rather than a user-focused default. However, I don't think this is caused by advertisements in the same way that Smart TVs suggest things.

spaetzleesser 4y ago

“Having a gay CEO in times of re-emerging bigotry and homophobic oppression probably does help make Apple genuinely committed to some privacy for its own sake,” I doubt that. He will use his billions to get privacy for himself while the users will be used for profits.

agumonkey 4y ago
He might still be a lot more sensitive to this subject than the average people.
- smoldesu 4y ago
  Occam's Razor suggests that marketing explains it better than "he's gay so he must like privacy". By that line of logic, it's equally possible that he is sensitive to privacy because he has a cocaine addiction. This kind of mental gymnastics gets me so fired-up on HN; there are people so convinced that $BIGCORP is benevolent that they'll refute other people's arguments by assuming things on something as arbitrary as sexuality. There's no putting the cat back in the bag now, every single FAANG member is completely compliant with the NSA's surveillance program. There's been an overwhelming number of leaks and whistleblowers over the past few dozen years, and we still have no decent refutation for PRISM. Privacy is not a luxury that can be offered by a US-based company, especially not at that scale.
  - agumonkey 4y ago
    You read too much into my words. And sexuality is far from being arbitrary. I'm not saying cook drives the company on this factor. But I'll bet solid money that he his leagues above straight CEOs on term of being aware of privacy reach.

warcher 4y ago

I feel obliged to push back on the "gay people would respect privacy better" narrative with a couple notable counterexamples. J. Edgar Hoover and Roy Cohn. I have to add that attributing virtue or vice based on nothing but personal demographics in this fashion is overwhelmingly likely to lead you to some bad conclusions.