8 ms·

So was Apple being disingenuous this whole time about privacy? Presuming they plan on using all the data they capture from their users iDevices for their ad pla

by Yhippa 4y ago

So was Apple being disingenuous this whole time about privacy? Presuming they plan on using all the data they capture from their users iDevices for their ad platform. Is there a way to opt out of that?

candiddevmike 4y ago
Gotta chase growth to keep the shareholders happy. Don't be surprised when App Store ads come to your home screen or Finder.
- Ro93 4y ago
  You sound like such a typical HN user it's hilarious . Not everything is so cynical. Apple has a history of putting users first. Do you really think they're going to jeopardize the likability of their own OS to the masses?
  - MobiusHorizons 4y ago
    Apple has a history of making choices that jeopardize the likability of their platforms with the masses (eg headphone jack, removing Touch ID) They also have a history of getting away with it.
    - threeseed 4y ago
      > jeopardize the likability of their platforms with the masses You don't represent the opinions of the masses. The fact that Apple iPhone sales continue unabated factually and objectively indicates that Headphone jacks and TouchID are not significant issues to warrant customers switching platforms.
    - askafriend 4y ago
      Everyone I know primarily use wireless headphones and love FaceID. If they don't have wireless headphones, they just pop the little adapter onto the end and go on with their day.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So they removed features that “jeopardized likeability” yet they keep selling more every year? How is that possible?
      - MobiusHorizons 4y ago
        What I mean by jeopardize is that these changes taken on their own would be seen as bad by many consumers, it is only because apple also provides an alternative (however expensive) that they end up getting away with it in public opinion (and sales).
        scarface74 4y ago
        You really think that most people prefer wired headphones than wireless? How many Android users - mostly on low end phones since high end Android phones also don’t have headphone jacks - actually prefer wired headphones? You also act as if iPhones only work with AirPods and not any cheap Bluetooth headset you can pick up from anywhere. Even Apple sells low end Beats Flex headphones for $50 that have the W1 chip with the special Apple sauce. I have a pair for traveling that I don’t have to worry about falling out.
      - lmm 4y ago
        They aren't, they're making more revenue because they're jacking up the prices on a smaller number of sales.
        scarface74 4y ago
        So people are willing to pay more for phones they don’t like? Even if that is true?
        lmm 4y ago
        They're becoming even more of a luxury fashion brand. Enough people are willing to pay the higher prices that they come out ahead, but that's not about being "likable".
  - slivanes 4y ago
    Putting users first by making un-serviceable laptops? Putting users first by removing headphone jacks? Putting users first by crippling competing web browsers on iOS?
    - threeseed 4y ago
      a) Laptops are serviceable and manuals/parts are available to self-repair them. b) Headphone jacks are simply not useful for most people with the popularity of Bluetooth. And those that need them can use Apple's class leading USB DAC dongles. c) Web browsers are such a significant security vector that I am fully in favour of heavily sandboxing them and restricting what they can do. I like my web sites to be different from my apps.
    - scarface74 4y ago
      You realize that most high end phones have removed head phone jacks? What next? Complaining about Apple removing SCSI ports?
      - vogon_laureate 4y ago
        RIP SCSI and FireWire.
    - judge2020 4y ago
      > Putting users first by crippling competing web browsers on iOS? I can happily re-enable the privacy-destroying qualities of web browsing by using Chrome on iOS, thank you very much.
      - figmaheart255 4y ago
        it's still crippled though. Try playing webm videos, like here https://www.base-n.de/webm/VP9%20Sample.html https://www.base-n.de/webm/VP9%20Sample.html They won't play because all browsers on iOS use webkit, and webkit doesn't support WebM. Whereas chrome and firefox on android both support it.
  - anonymousab 4y ago
    MacOS already bugs me about using Safari and other apps with periodic notification banners that cannot be disabled. Oh, you can disable that crap for non apple apps. But Apple doesn't let you do it for theirs.
  - whywhywhywhy 4y ago
    They're already doing things that Mac OS users from lets say the era of Jaguar would find utterly tasteless. I use iTunes match for my music but for 6 months last year once a month opening their music app it would force me to dismiss an Apple Music trail before I could play MY files. App Store already has a pile of ads and paid placements before you get to the exact name match. End of the day they don't have a product visionary at the helm they have a bean counter.
  - postalrat 4y ago
    Users first but users can't use a web browser that might (but unlikely) compete with their app revenue?
    - scarface74 4y ago
      So if Apple’s forcing users to use WebKit is keeping great PWAs at bay, where are all of the great web apps for Android?
      - postalrat 4y ago
        I pretty much only use web apps.
onelovetwo 4y ago
No, they are beholden to the same rules they set in place. I'm guessing it will be a more privacy focused platform.
colmmacc 4y ago
Having a gay CEO in times of re-emerging bigotry and homophobic oppression probably does help make Apple genuinely committed to some privacy for its own sake, and its revenue model does give it more latitude to serve the needs of customers. But at the same time when it comes to advertising, it's clear that Apple has the same sense of self-serving "we mean private between you and us, not private to you. Total coincidence that that means we can build a walled garden around our ad platform" that is an industry norm in the US. I recently unlocked my iPad mini while staying in downtown Boston. Right there on the Home Screen was a geo-based app suggestion for Dunkin' Donuts. It felt very wrong, like when a Smart TV tries to give you a suggestion. I don't want my iPad spying on me. I've never used the Dunkin' Donuts app and had no interest. Apple had clearly used my location to target me with a suggestion. That told me everything I need to know about how far they are willing to push privacy.
- tobylane 4y ago
  But did Dunkin’ Donuts learn your address and buying habits when it paid for that advert? Apple could be serving you accurate ads that rely on collected data, while only telling DD that an ad was sold to Apple’s idea of a relevant viewer and let them judge if they want to buy more. I think we need to distinguish this, perhaps you are with the walled garden spying. Do you trust the option to reset your advertiser ID?
  - colmmacc 4y ago
    You're most likely right about what Dunkin' Donuts know. I'm less confident about what Apple themselves know. Apple have people talented enough that they can build a privacy-preserving back-end too so that their operators and staff have no way to know where I was. I hope that is how it works, but I've never seen it explained that way. If Apple end up on the wrong end of broad subpoenas to find out who was near abortion clinics ... getting better recommendations for donuts wasn't worth it.
    - lotsofpulp 4y ago
      > Apple end up on the wrong end of broad subpoenas to find out who was near abortion clinics I would be more concerned about ATT/Verizon/T-Mobile, who have real-time data on where every connected phone is all the time and a FISA court can always serve them with a secret warrant. Also, what you are describing is not Dunkin paying Apple for an advertisement. If it is, then it would be huge news that Apple is pushing non Apple ads to its devices.
pxc 4y ago
Any OS vendor that tries to trick or harangue you into signing into/up for cloud services and telemetry before you even log into your device for the first time is absolutely not privacy-oriented. That Apple automatically opts users into everything and tries to alarm them with popups if they dare opt out should have made things clear enough. The only way that Apple has managed to seem even sort of focused on customer privacy is that Microsoft is my now so god-awful and free software desktops are so marginal that most people no longer trulyv remember what it's like to even set up a system whose mission is not to monetize the user by plugging them into a ton of services that collect data about them. The only companies not tempted to do this are (some of) the ones that don't collect data like this in the first place.
- judge2020 4y ago
  > Any OS vendor that tries to trick or harangue you into signing into/up for cloud services and telemetry before you even log into your device for the first time is absolutely not privacy-oriented. This is a needlessly binary take. When most people hear privacy, they really just want to stop seeing creepy personalized ads courtesy of Google, Facebook, and Amazon. The "Apple" solution is not one of 'complete' privacy, but one where the user knows exactly who and what is using their data, assuming you completely buy into their ecosystem (including iCloud+).
dwaite 4y ago
Privacy doesn't mean no advertisements. In rough Apple parlance, the base level of privacy means understanding where your personal information is going and being able to consent or reject access and sharing of personal information. If Apple built an advertising platform that made entirely local decisions on what ads to show, anonymized information on ad display and anonymized attribution, that consent prompt would be to either have advertisements chosen locally based on device-held information, or have advertisements chosen solely based on context.

by Yhippa 4y ago

candiddevmike 4y ago

Gotta chase growth to keep the shareholders happy. Don't be surprised when App Store ads come to your home screen or Finder.

Ro93 4y ago
You sound like such a typical HN user it's hilarious . Not everything is so cynical. Apple has a history of putting users first. Do you really think they're going to jeopardize the likability of their own OS to the masses?
- MobiusHorizons 4y ago
  Apple has a history of making choices that jeopardize the likability of their platforms with the masses (eg headphone jack, removing Touch ID) They also have a history of getting away with it.
  - threeseed 4y ago
    > jeopardize the likability of their platforms with the masses You don't represent the opinions of the masses. The fact that Apple iPhone sales continue unabated factually and objectively indicates that Headphone jacks and TouchID are not significant issues to warrant customers switching platforms.
  - askafriend 4y ago
    Everyone I know primarily use wireless headphones and love FaceID. If they don't have wireless headphones, they just pop the little adapter onto the end and go on with their day.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So they removed features that “jeopardized likeability” yet they keep selling more every year? How is that possible?
    - MobiusHorizons 4y ago
      What I mean by jeopardize is that these changes taken on their own would be seen as bad by many consumers, it is only because apple also provides an alternative (however expensive) that they end up getting away with it in public opinion (and sales).
      - scarface74 4y ago
        You really think that most people prefer wired headphones than wireless? How many Android users - mostly on low end phones since high end Android phones also don’t have headphone jacks - actually prefer wired headphones? You also act as if iPhones only work with AirPods and not any cheap Bluetooth headset you can pick up from anywhere. Even Apple sells low end Beats Flex headphones for $50 that have the W1 chip with the special Apple sauce. I have a pair for traveling that I don’t have to worry about falling out.
    - lmm 4y ago
      They aren't, they're making more revenue because they're jacking up the prices on a smaller number of sales.
      - scarface74 4y ago
        So people are willing to pay more for phones they don’t like? Even if that is true?
        lmm 4y ago
        They're becoming even more of a luxury fashion brand. Enough people are willing to pay the higher prices that they come out ahead, but that's not about being "likable".
- slivanes 4y ago
  Putting users first by making un-serviceable laptops? Putting users first by removing headphone jacks? Putting users first by crippling competing web browsers on iOS?
  - threeseed 4y ago
    a) Laptops are serviceable and manuals/parts are available to self-repair them. b) Headphone jacks are simply not useful for most people with the popularity of Bluetooth. And those that need them can use Apple's class leading USB DAC dongles. c) Web browsers are such a significant security vector that I am fully in favour of heavily sandboxing them and restricting what they can do. I like my web sites to be different from my apps.
  - scarface74 4y ago
    You realize that most high end phones have removed head phone jacks? What next? Complaining about Apple removing SCSI ports?
    - vogon_laureate 4y ago
      RIP SCSI and FireWire.
  - judge2020 4y ago
    > Putting users first by crippling competing web browsers on iOS? I can happily re-enable the privacy-destroying qualities of web browsing by using Chrome on iOS, thank you very much.
    - figmaheart255 4y ago
      it's still crippled though. Try playing webm videos, like here https://www.base-n.de/webm/VP9%20Sample.html https://www.base-n.de/webm/VP9%20Sample.html They won't play because all browsers on iOS use webkit, and webkit doesn't support WebM. Whereas chrome and firefox on android both support it.
- anonymousab 4y ago
  MacOS already bugs me about using Safari and other apps with periodic notification banners that cannot be disabled. Oh, you can disable that crap for non apple apps. But Apple doesn't let you do it for theirs.
- whywhywhywhy 4y ago
  They're already doing things that Mac OS users from lets say the era of Jaguar would find utterly tasteless. I use iTunes match for my music but for 6 months last year once a month opening their music app it would force me to dismiss an Apple Music trail before I could play MY files. App Store already has a pile of ads and paid placements before you get to the exact name match. End of the day they don't have a product visionary at the helm they have a bean counter.
- postalrat 4y ago
  Users first but users can't use a web browser that might (but unlikely) compete with their app revenue?
  - scarface74 4y ago
    So if Apple’s forcing users to use WebKit is keeping great PWAs at bay, where are all of the great web apps for Android?
    - postalrat 4y ago
      I pretty much only use web apps.

onelovetwo 4y ago

No, they are beholden to the same rules they set in place. I'm guessing it will be a more privacy focused platform.

colmmacc 4y ago

Having a gay CEO in times of re-emerging bigotry and homophobic oppression probably does help make Apple genuinely committed to some privacy for its own sake, and its revenue model does give it more latitude to serve the needs of customers. But at the same time when it comes to advertising, it's clear that Apple has the same sense of self-serving "we mean private between you and us, not private to you. Total coincidence that that means we can build a walled garden around our ad platform" that is an industry norm in the US. I recently unlocked my iPad mini while staying in downtown Boston. Right there on the Home Screen was a geo-based app suggestion for Dunkin' Donuts. It felt very wrong, like when a Smart TV tries to give you a suggestion. I don't want my iPad spying on me. I've never used the Dunkin' Donuts app and had no interest. Apple had clearly used my location to target me with a suggestion. That told me everything I need to know about how far they are willing to push privacy.

tobylane 4y ago
But did Dunkin’ Donuts learn your address and buying habits when it paid for that advert? Apple could be serving you accurate ads that rely on collected data, while only telling DD that an ad was sold to Apple’s idea of a relevant viewer and let them judge if they want to buy more. I think we need to distinguish this, perhaps you are with the walled garden spying. Do you trust the option to reset your advertiser ID?
- colmmacc 4y ago
  You're most likely right about what Dunkin' Donuts know. I'm less confident about what Apple themselves know. Apple have people talented enough that they can build a privacy-preserving back-end too so that their operators and staff have no way to know where I was. I hope that is how it works, but I've never seen it explained that way. If Apple end up on the wrong end of broad subpoenas to find out who was near abortion clinics ... getting better recommendations for donuts wasn't worth it.
  - lotsofpulp 4y ago
    > Apple end up on the wrong end of broad subpoenas to find out who was near abortion clinics I would be more concerned about ATT/Verizon/T-Mobile, who have real-time data on where every connected phone is all the time and a FISA court can always serve them with a secret warrant. Also, what you are describing is not Dunkin paying Apple for an advertisement. If it is, then it would be huge news that Apple is pushing non Apple ads to its devices.

pxc 4y ago

Any OS vendor that tries to trick or harangue you into signing into/up for cloud services and telemetry before you even log into your device for the first time is absolutely not privacy-oriented. That Apple automatically opts users into everything and tries to alarm them with popups if they dare opt out should have made things clear enough. The only way that Apple has managed to seem even sort of focused on customer privacy is that Microsoft is my now so god-awful and free software desktops are so marginal that most people no longer trulyv remember what it's like to even set up a system whose mission is not to monetize the user by plugging them into a ton of services that collect data about them. The only companies not tempted to do this are (some of) the ones that don't collect data like this in the first place.

judge2020 4y ago
> Any OS vendor that tries to trick or harangue you into signing into/up for cloud services and telemetry before you even log into your device for the first time is absolutely not privacy-oriented. This is a needlessly binary take. When most people hear privacy, they really just want to stop seeing creepy personalized ads courtesy of Google, Facebook, and Amazon. The "Apple" solution is not one of 'complete' privacy, but one where the user knows exactly who and what is using their data, assuming you completely buy into their ecosystem (including iCloud+).

dwaite 4y ago

Privacy doesn't mean no advertisements. In rough Apple parlance, the base level of privacy means understanding where your personal information is going and being able to consent or reject access and sharing of personal information. If Apple built an advertising platform that made entirely local decisions on what ads to show, anonymized information on ad display and anonymized attribution, that consent prompt would be to either have advertisements chosen locally based on device-held information, or have advertisements chosen solely based on context.