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It is inefficient to produce and store, but do we have a more efficient alternative that can be rolled out at global scale? Batteries are more efficient at sto

by luplex 4y ago

It is inefficient to produce and store, but do we have a more efficient alternative that can be rolled out at global scale? Batteries are more efficient at storing energy, but I'm not convinced we can build enough of them as quickly as we need to.

Zigurd 4y ago
Re "do we have a more efficient alternative that can be rolled out at global scale?" Possibly ammonia.
parkingrift 4y ago
Batteries aren’t an answer for anything but cars. Honestly even for cars they still aren’t a great answer. They are way too heavy and take up too much space. There are all sorts of problems to solve with hydrogen, but I think we’re closer to solving those problems than we are to increasing battery density by an order of magnitude.
- empyrrhicist 4y ago
  > They are way too heavy and take up too much space. Can you clarify? Currently have a Chevy Bolt and it is great...
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    Sure. Electric vehicles have enormous batteries which weigh thousands of pounds and take up a substantial portion of interior volume. We’re at the bleeding edge of battery tech and the best we’re able to achieve is 300ish miles of range. We can’t realistically expand this to 500 to 1,500 miles anytime in the next decade or so. As example compare the Model 3 and a CRV. This is an absurd example because the CRV is an SUV, but the comparison is telling given the weight differences. The Model 3 weighs 4,200 pounds with 97 cubic feet of interior passenger space. A Honda CRV weighs 3,500 pounds and 103 cubic feet of interior passenger space. So we have a smaller car that is quite a bit heavier and it’s almost exclusively due to the battery. Tesla can’t cram more battery into that car so the only option is to dramatically increase energy density. There is nothing in the horizon except incremental improvements.
    - LightG 4y ago
      I think you're missing the point. 300 miles is not my ideal and, yes, change may or may not be incremental. I'd be happier with 1000m. But 300m is enough for me to buy one now. And that is progress. And I think your point on space is out of date. I have no idea about the Tesla M3. In my mind I hate how that car looks and so I've never even tested one. But, for space, try an ioniq 5. Magic.
    - empyrrhicist 4y ago
      ... yeah, but it's more than good enough for actual use, and moving away from internal combustion is important. Internal combustion cars can't go 500 miles on a tank of gas either, and trips longer than 300 miles are a tiny, tiny, tiny minority for most people.
      - parkingrift 4y ago
        >... yeah, but it's more than good enough for actual use For you. >Internal combustion cars can't go 500 miles on a tank of gas either, and trips longer than 300 miles are a tiny, tiny, tiny minority for most people. Internal combustion doesn't need to go 500 miles on a tank. Gas vehicles can go 300-400 miles and then add an additional 300-400 miles in <2 minutes. Hydrogen vehicles can have that same benefit.
        empyrrhicist 4y ago
        > For you. For a large number of people. Nobody is claiming EVs are ready to replace all use cases for ICE vehicles, that would be silly. It is equally silly to point out shortcomings of EVs and say they're irrelevant in the current marketplace. Also, level 3 charging is pretty fast - it's not as fast as filling up on fossil energy, but the bigger issue is simply one of availability. If there were even half as many charging stations as gas stations, the feasibility of longer trips would change considerably. You'd be trading a slightly slower trip for vastly reduced costs.
        onethought 4y ago
        This isn’t true, there is no hydrogen filling infrastructure at all, not at 100 miles, 400 or 800. Power outlets… or heck even super chargers are everywhere. “Just install a network of hydrogen filling stations, and hydrogen production facilities, and trucks that ship hydrogen daily to all of those filling stations” … ?
- onethought 4y ago
  Model 3 is ~12% heavier than a Camry and the Model 3 is smaller in length. What do you mean too heavy and too much space?
  - cnasc 4y ago
    > the Model 3 is smaller in length The Model 3 long range is almost 1,000 pounds heavier than a Camry, and the Camry has more range (and a faster “charging” time). Interior volume is similar, with a slight advantage to the Camry, though given the Model 3 has smaller exterior dimensions I’d give it the edge there.
    - jtlisi 4y ago
      The MSRP of a Camry is less than half that of a model 3 long range. 26000$ vs 57000$
    - onethought 4y ago
      “Charging time” is such a bullshit term. EV means everyone has a “petrol pump” in their home. So charge time only matters on long distance driving, and we are talking 30-50 minutes per 400 miles. This just doesn’t feel like a real problem to me. Who on an 800 mile road trip is upset about a 50 minute stop?
  - parkingrift 4y ago
    I mean that we're at the absolute edge of possible range with existing battery tech, and there is no path to dramatically increasing range. The Model 3 is 20% heavier than a Honda CRV, the "range" is about 30% less, and the total cargo capacity is also about 30% less. We can't add more batteries because the weight is already an issue, and so the only viable path forward is to dramatically increase energy density. I compared a sedan to an SUV because you otherwise wouldn't expect a small sedan to weigh so much more than an SUV. Most effort today is going into decreasing costs via economies of scale. What's the path to an electric vehicle with a 1,500 mile range? Hydrogen "gen1" cars are already over 400 miles of range, and you can add 400 more miles of range in 3 minutes. Basically... batteries seem more like a stopgap than a permanent solution. Do you really think batteries will ever power an airplane, for example? I do think it's plausible that planes could run on hydrogen.
- adrianN 4y ago
  There are now battery-electric trains.
konschubert 4y ago
We can use electricity, hydrogen and CO2 from the air to make climante-neutral methane. Methane can then replace natural gas. We already have huge storage infrastructure, power plants, and also cars and trucks that run on natural gas.
freemint 4y ago
Yes, it's called a electricity grid. The sun shines 24/7.

by luplex 4y ago

Zigurd 4y ago

Re "do we have a more efficient alternative that can be rolled out at global scale?" Possibly ammonia.

parkingrift 4y ago

Batteries aren’t an answer for anything but cars. Honestly even for cars they still aren’t a great answer. They are way too heavy and take up too much space. There are all sorts of problems to solve with hydrogen, but I think we’re closer to solving those problems than we are to increasing battery density by an order of magnitude.

empyrrhicist 4y ago
> They are way too heavy and take up too much space. Can you clarify? Currently have a Chevy Bolt and it is great...
- parkingrift 4y ago
  Sure. Electric vehicles have enormous batteries which weigh thousands of pounds and take up a substantial portion of interior volume. We’re at the bleeding edge of battery tech and the best we’re able to achieve is 300ish miles of range. We can’t realistically expand this to 500 to 1,500 miles anytime in the next decade or so. As example compare the Model 3 and a CRV. This is an absurd example because the CRV is an SUV, but the comparison is telling given the weight differences. The Model 3 weighs 4,200 pounds with 97 cubic feet of interior passenger space. A Honda CRV weighs 3,500 pounds and 103 cubic feet of interior passenger space. So we have a smaller car that is quite a bit heavier and it’s almost exclusively due to the battery. Tesla can’t cram more battery into that car so the only option is to dramatically increase energy density. There is nothing in the horizon except incremental improvements.
  - LightG 4y ago
    I think you're missing the point. 300 miles is not my ideal and, yes, change may or may not be incremental. I'd be happier with 1000m. But 300m is enough for me to buy one now. And that is progress. And I think your point on space is out of date. I have no idea about the Tesla M3. In my mind I hate how that car looks and so I've never even tested one. But, for space, try an ioniq 5. Magic.
  - empyrrhicist 4y ago
    ... yeah, but it's more than good enough for actual use, and moving away from internal combustion is important. Internal combustion cars can't go 500 miles on a tank of gas either, and trips longer than 300 miles are a tiny, tiny, tiny minority for most people.
    - parkingrift 4y ago
      >... yeah, but it's more than good enough for actual use For you. >Internal combustion cars can't go 500 miles on a tank of gas either, and trips longer than 300 miles are a tiny, tiny, tiny minority for most people. Internal combustion doesn't need to go 500 miles on a tank. Gas vehicles can go 300-400 miles and then add an additional 300-400 miles in <2 minutes. Hydrogen vehicles can have that same benefit.
      - empyrrhicist 4y ago
        > For you. For a large number of people. Nobody is claiming EVs are ready to replace all use cases for ICE vehicles, that would be silly. It is equally silly to point out shortcomings of EVs and say they're irrelevant in the current marketplace. Also, level 3 charging is pretty fast - it's not as fast as filling up on fossil energy, but the bigger issue is simply one of availability. If there were even half as many charging stations as gas stations, the feasibility of longer trips would change considerably. You'd be trading a slightly slower trip for vastly reduced costs.
      - onethought 4y ago
        This isn’t true, there is no hydrogen filling infrastructure at all, not at 100 miles, 400 or 800. Power outlets… or heck even super chargers are everywhere. “Just install a network of hydrogen filling stations, and hydrogen production facilities, and trucks that ship hydrogen daily to all of those filling stations” … ?
onethought 4y ago
Model 3 is ~12% heavier than a Camry and the Model 3 is smaller in length. What do you mean too heavy and too much space?
- cnasc 4y ago
  > the Model 3 is smaller in length The Model 3 long range is almost 1,000 pounds heavier than a Camry, and the Camry has more range (and a faster “charging” time). Interior volume is similar, with a slight advantage to the Camry, though given the Model 3 has smaller exterior dimensions I’d give it the edge there.
  - jtlisi 4y ago
    The MSRP of a Camry is less than half that of a model 3 long range. 26000$ vs 57000$
  - onethought 4y ago
    “Charging time” is such a bullshit term. EV means everyone has a “petrol pump” in their home. So charge time only matters on long distance driving, and we are talking 30-50 minutes per 400 miles. This just doesn’t feel like a real problem to me. Who on an 800 mile road trip is upset about a 50 minute stop?
- parkingrift 4y ago
  I mean that we're at the absolute edge of possible range with existing battery tech, and there is no path to dramatically increasing range. The Model 3 is 20% heavier than a Honda CRV, the "range" is about 30% less, and the total cargo capacity is also about 30% less. We can't add more batteries because the weight is already an issue, and so the only viable path forward is to dramatically increase energy density. I compared a sedan to an SUV because you otherwise wouldn't expect a small sedan to weigh so much more than an SUV. Most effort today is going into decreasing costs via economies of scale. What's the path to an electric vehicle with a 1,500 mile range? Hydrogen "gen1" cars are already over 400 miles of range, and you can add 400 more miles of range in 3 minutes. Basically... batteries seem more like a stopgap than a permanent solution. Do you really think batteries will ever power an airplane, for example? I do think it's plausible that planes could run on hydrogen.
adrianN 4y ago
There are now battery-electric trains.

konschubert 4y ago

We can use electricity, hydrogen and CO2 from the air to make climante-neutral methane. Methane can then replace natural gas. We already have huge storage infrastructure, power plants, and also cars and trucks that run on natural gas.

freemint 4y ago

Yes, it's called a electricity grid. The sun shines 24/7.