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> It's simple, much of Europe has already figured this out. Pay PhD students appropriately, and give them full benefits. The EU is in many ways worse. You have

> It's simple, much of Europe has already figured this out. Pay PhD students appropriately, and give them full benefits. The EU is in many ways worse. You have the same problem except that your PhD is worth much less. PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. You just said good salary, and listed University of Amsterdam as offering 27900-35000 per year. At UNC, minimums are: bio $33k, chemistry $28k, CS $25k. And North Carolina is far cheaper than Amsterdam. PhDs in the EU live often in much more expensive areas and make less than PhD students in the US.

adamsmith143 4y ago
>The EU is in many ways worse. You have the same problem except that your PhD is worth much less. This is debatable. >PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. This is completely false. The absolute highest stipends in the US are at places like Stanford or Columbia and even then only reach something like 45000 per year and both Palo Alto and NYC are much more expensive than Amsterdam. They also do not receive anywhere near the same benefits as in UVA. >You just said good salary, and listed University of Amsterdam as offering 27900-35000 per year. With +16% in bonuses, paid vacations, paid sick days, etc. With bonus the salary is 32364-40600 Which is more than 90% of US stipends. >At UNC, minimums are: bio $33k, chemistry $28k, CS $25k. And North Carolina is far cheaper than Amsterdam. Also false. I encourage you to do the math for yourself but Amsterdam is about as expensive to live in as Chapel Hill. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Netherlands&city1=Chapel+Hill%2C+NC&city2=Amsterdam https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... Also the stipends in Netherlands are more or less the same across the country so at Utrecht, Maastricht, Leiden etc. which are much less expensive than Amsterdam. >PhDs in the EU live often in much more expensive areas and make less than PhD students in the US. This just isn't supported by the data.
- light_hue_1 4y ago
  >> PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. > This is completely false. Then you don't know the US system. As evidenced by the fact that you say: > With +16% in bonuses, paid vacations, paid sick days, etc. With bonus the salary is 32364-40600 Which is more than 90% of US stipends. Every PhD student at every university I've ever seen has paid vacation, paid sick days, etc. Conference travel all around the world, at levels that EU universities can't match. As a PhD student my program basically paid for vacations in: China, 4 different EU countries, 5-6 different US states + Hawaii + Alaska, Japan, etc. There are plenty of bonuses and perks. > The absolute highest stipends in the US ... They also do not receive anywhere near the same benefits as in UVA. I'm at one of these places. In terms of benefits, we far outstrip the EU. The flexibility we have to spend money on travel, equipment, perks, is incomparable. But let's take a step back. You started by saying that this problem is solved in the EU and now you backtracked to arguing about +/-10% salary. Big deal. The EU is expensive, it pays poorly. You want to argue the US is a little worse. But your statement that this problem is solved in the EU couldn't be further from the truth.
  - jltsiren 4y ago
    > Every PhD student at every university I've ever seen has paid vacation, paid sick days, etc. Conference travel all around the world, at levels that EU universities can't match. As a PhD student my program basically paid for vacations in: China, 4 different EU countries, 5-6 different US states + Hawaii + Alaska, Japan, etc. There are plenty of bonuses and perks. Conference travel and short-term research visits have nothing to do with vacation. They are just business travel, where you rarely have enough time to do anything interesting. I did my PhD in Finland and finished about a decade ago. During that time, I made business trips to Australia, Chile, Colombia, Denmark (x2), Germany, Italy (x2), Turkey, and the US. I also had the time and money to travel on my own, and I visited Iceland (x2), Kenya, Morocco, Nepal, Peru, and Tanzania, in addition to 6 or 7 trips to various European countries. Some of my friends didn't travel as much, but they bought a house, because doing a PhD was a middle-class job. Also, this branch of the discussion was not about the EU but about "much of Europe". That usually refers to the West/North European countries that remained free after WW2. Large parts of Europe suffered under communism and other totalitarian governments during the Cold War, and their standard of living is still lower because of that.

adamsmith143 4y ago

>The EU is in many ways worse. You have the same problem except that your PhD is worth much less. This is debatable. >PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. This is completely false. The absolute highest stipends in the US are at places like Stanford or Columbia and even then only reach something like 45000 per year and both Palo Alto and NYC are much more expensive than Amsterdam. They also do not receive anywhere near the same benefits as in UVA. >You just said good salary, and listed University of Amsterdam as offering 27900-35000 per year. With +16% in bonuses, paid vacations, paid sick days, etc. With bonus the salary is 32364-40600 Which is more than 90% of US stipends. >At UNC, minimums are: bio $33k, chemistry $28k, CS $25k. And North Carolina is far cheaper than Amsterdam. Also false. I encourage you to do the math for yourself but Amsterdam is about as expensive to live in as Chapel Hill. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Netherlands&city1=Chapel+Hill%2C+NC&city2=Amsterdam https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... Also the stipends in Netherlands are more or less the same across the country so at Utrecht, Maastricht, Leiden etc. which are much less expensive than Amsterdam. >PhDs in the EU live often in much more expensive areas and make less than PhD students in the US. This just isn't supported by the data.

light_hue_1 4y ago
>> PhD students in the EU make less than students in the US! And virtually all of them in the US get full benefits. > This is completely false. Then you don't know the US system. As evidenced by the fact that you say: > With +16% in bonuses, paid vacations, paid sick days, etc. With bonus the salary is 32364-40600 Which is more than 90% of US stipends. Every PhD student at every university I've ever seen has paid vacation, paid sick days, etc. Conference travel all around the world, at levels that EU universities can't match. As a PhD student my program basically paid for vacations in: China, 4 different EU countries, 5-6 different US states + Hawaii + Alaska, Japan, etc. There are plenty of bonuses and perks. > The absolute highest stipends in the US ... They also do not receive anywhere near the same benefits as in UVA. I'm at one of these places. In terms of benefits, we far outstrip the EU. The flexibility we have to spend money on travel, equipment, perks, is incomparable. But let's take a step back. You started by saying that this problem is solved in the EU and now you backtracked to arguing about +/-10% salary. Big deal. The EU is expensive, it pays poorly. You want to argue the US is a little worse. But your statement that this problem is solved in the EU couldn't be further from the truth.
- jltsiren 4y ago
  > Every PhD student at every university I've ever seen has paid vacation, paid sick days, etc. Conference travel all around the world, at levels that EU universities can't match. As a PhD student my program basically paid for vacations in: China, 4 different EU countries, 5-6 different US states + Hawaii + Alaska, Japan, etc. There are plenty of bonuses and perks. Conference travel and short-term research visits have nothing to do with vacation. They are just business travel, where you rarely have enough time to do anything interesting. I did my PhD in Finland and finished about a decade ago. During that time, I made business trips to Australia, Chile, Colombia, Denmark (x2), Germany, Italy (x2), Turkey, and the US. I also had the time and money to travel on my own, and I visited Iceland (x2), Kenya, Morocco, Nepal, Peru, and Tanzania, in addition to 6 or 7 trips to various European countries. Some of my friends didn't travel as much, but they bought a house, because doing a PhD was a middle-class job. Also, this branch of the discussion was not about the EU but about "much of Europe". That usually refers to the West/North European countries that remained free after WW2. Large parts of Europe suffered under communism and other totalitarian governments during the Cold War, and their standard of living is still lower because of that.