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I disagree that dod has the best tech already in "top secret". The best tech is often dod sponsored, but is made public by the university researchers who usuall

I disagree that dod has the best tech already in "top secret". The best tech is often dod sponsored, but is made public by the university researchers who usually create it. And it's not costly, you can go read it and use it, often the stuff is released as open source software on the researchers' website.

culturestate 15y ago
I think we'd be surprised to see some of the things that might be in the bowels of, say, Sandia.
- marshallp 15y ago
  I used to think they were all special genius places, until i see that it's not their people winning publicly open challenges like netflix, darpa grand challenge, x prize, or goldfarb.
  - nosequel 15y ago
    People at those "special genius places" can't participate in any of the things you mentioned. They get paid for other, much more important jobs. Darpa grand challenge wasn't due to the government not being able to do something, it was due to it being much cheaper to just pay someone to do it for you. In the end, lots of teams competed and only a few got any money out of it, the rest of us ended up just volunteering for the government for a while in the hopes of making a lot of money.
    - geogra4 15y ago
      I've worked with some GOTS software that came from Sandia and some that came from Lawrence Livermore. It's honestly kind of crappy.
    - munin 15y ago
      here's a good test: the ROSE framework is developed by LLNL. it's basically an LLVM also-ran. compare its code quality, its use experience, and its overall worth (the code for both is open source!)
    - marshallp 15y ago
      I don't believe that's true. The military's been trying to develop self driving vehicles for decades and one of their teams did compete in the darpa challenge and lost. And I don't see self-driving vehicles being unimportant now that the wars are fought against civilian combatants. The military is (or should be) desperate for them, they would avoid almost all military deaths that occur now (ied's blowing up humvees transporting things from the greenzone in baghdad for example). What are the more important stuff that government scientists deal with that academic/industrial scientists are not up to? Don't believe the hype the military-industrial complex sells about itself.
      - nosequel 15y ago
        No one from the government competed in the Darpa Grand Challenge. It was all private companies or universities. I was there, DARPA sponsored it and oversaw it, that's all. Check the wiki link below and tell me which team listed was from the DoD? They wanted self-driving cars for military transport into dangerous locations. The first DGC there were only a few competitors and none of us did very well. In 2005 there were quite a few (listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Grand_Challenge_(2005) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Grand_Challenge_(2005)) with lots of teams making it through to the desert final stage. I was part of the military-industrial complex, and yes there is a lot of wasteful B.S. only there to make more things to make more money, but there is stuff there that is not being done at all (or at least not well) outside of the government. Those things are the things that are labelled Secret or Top Secret in most cases. Like all governments, if the US government has an advantage in any little way, it likes to keep it that way.
        marshallp 15y ago
        Wouldn't you consider the mitre entry basically a government entry (it's a non-profit funded by the government).
        nosequel 15y ago
        No, because they are all civilians who don't even carry GS rankings. Mitre is just a government contractor like everyone else in that space, but they are different because they are a not-for-profit corporation. They serve contracts for the government, but so do people like Lockheed and Northrop. Like those other two, the government couldn't just shut down Mitre.
Jd 15y ago
"But is made public by the university researchers who usually create it" <-- yeah, the stuff you know about is made public, and the stuff you don't.... isn't. That's what secret means. I think I heard that 50% of the research in Neuroscience labs today is DoD sponsored and never sees the light of day. Mind-hacking anyone?
- marshallp 15y ago
  Tech that could be applied to civilians and made money on doesn't stay hidden for long - this is one place where the "greedy" mba types are the good guys.
  - Jd 15y ago
    I take it you think there are MBA types that wander around NSA headquarters, grab the dragonfly-size spy robots and bring them to market?
    - marshallp 15y ago
      yeah, exactly. there has to be a management structure even at nsa, and management types are "networkers" who'll talk to people with money to invest.
      - nosequel 15y ago
        NSA gets their money whether you like it or not. They certainly have people in charge who talk to the legislative branch, but they aren't MBA/marketing people. The are usually ex-generals. Other agencies might seek outside contractors, but the NSA is one of the few who do most of their work themselves. I didn't work there, but that was my understanding at the time I worked in other parts of the government.
        marshallp 15y ago
        Doesn't matter about their backgrounds, mba or ex-general, people who rise to executive levels rub shoulders with investors at cocktail parties and deals happen.
PakG1 15y ago
We're not aware of what they have that's considered classified. Back in the 70s, a former prof of mine was doing his phd. He was trying to figure stuff out and couldn't. Through one turn or another, he said the DoD told him, "OK, kid, come over here, we'll help yo out." He got classified access to see stuff that blew his mind and helped him get going. The point is that back then, at least one guy's experience was that the military helped the university researchers, not the other way around. When I look at some of the capabilities in military hardware today, I wouldn't doubt that the DoD is still way up there. Certainly, a lot of medical innovations (as one example) are still made on the battlefield first, even today.
nosequel 15y ago
How would you know if it is top secret? Most top secret tech never gets seen outside of the top secret circles. Unless you have a TS/SCI clearance, the best you can do is speculate on what exists now. Obviously not all fields are covered in the government, but things that are very important to them (signal intelligence, networking, logistical management, satellite communication) are all very well ahead of the consumer/public space in my experiences.
- marshallp 15y ago
  I've got doubts about their logistical and abilities, now that they increasingly use private companies to get their stuff around.

culturestate 15y ago

I think we'd be surprised to see some of the things that might be in the bowels of, say, Sandia.

marshallp 15y ago
I used to think they were all special genius places, until i see that it's not their people winning publicly open challenges like netflix, darpa grand challenge, x prize, or goldfarb.
- nosequel 15y ago
  People at those "special genius places" can't participate in any of the things you mentioned. They get paid for other, much more important jobs. Darpa grand challenge wasn't due to the government not being able to do something, it was due to it being much cheaper to just pay someone to do it for you. In the end, lots of teams competed and only a few got any money out of it, the rest of us ended up just volunteering for the government for a while in the hopes of making a lot of money.
  - geogra4 15y ago
    I've worked with some GOTS software that came from Sandia and some that came from Lawrence Livermore. It's honestly kind of crappy.
  - munin 15y ago
    here's a good test: the ROSE framework is developed by LLNL. it's basically an LLVM also-ran. compare its code quality, its use experience, and its overall worth (the code for both is open source!)
  - marshallp 15y ago
    I don't believe that's true. The military's been trying to develop self driving vehicles for decades and one of their teams did compete in the darpa challenge and lost. And I don't see self-driving vehicles being unimportant now that the wars are fought against civilian combatants. The military is (or should be) desperate for them, they would avoid almost all military deaths that occur now (ied's blowing up humvees transporting things from the greenzone in baghdad for example). What are the more important stuff that government scientists deal with that academic/industrial scientists are not up to? Don't believe the hype the military-industrial complex sells about itself.
    - nosequel 15y ago
      No one from the government competed in the Darpa Grand Challenge. It was all private companies or universities. I was there, DARPA sponsored it and oversaw it, that's all. Check the wiki link below and tell me which team listed was from the DoD? They wanted self-driving cars for military transport into dangerous locations. The first DGC there were only a few competitors and none of us did very well. In 2005 there were quite a few (listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Grand_Challenge_(2005) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA_Grand_Challenge_(2005)) with lots of teams making it through to the desert final stage. I was part of the military-industrial complex, and yes there is a lot of wasteful B.S. only there to make more things to make more money, but there is stuff there that is not being done at all (or at least not well) outside of the government. Those things are the things that are labelled Secret or Top Secret in most cases. Like all governments, if the US government has an advantage in any little way, it likes to keep it that way.
      - marshallp 15y ago
        Wouldn't you consider the mitre entry basically a government entry (it's a non-profit funded by the government).
        nosequel 15y ago
        No, because they are all civilians who don't even carry GS rankings. Mitre is just a government contractor like everyone else in that space, but they are different because they are a not-for-profit corporation. They serve contracts for the government, but so do people like Lockheed and Northrop. Like those other two, the government couldn't just shut down Mitre.

Jd 15y ago

"But is made public by the university researchers who usually create it" <-- yeah, the stuff you know about is made public, and the stuff you don't.... isn't. That's what secret means. I think I heard that 50% of the research in Neuroscience labs today is DoD sponsored and never sees the light of day. Mind-hacking anyone?

marshallp 15y ago
Tech that could be applied to civilians and made money on doesn't stay hidden for long - this is one place where the "greedy" mba types are the good guys.
- Jd 15y ago
  I take it you think there are MBA types that wander around NSA headquarters, grab the dragonfly-size spy robots and bring them to market?
  - marshallp 15y ago
    yeah, exactly. there has to be a management structure even at nsa, and management types are "networkers" who'll talk to people with money to invest.
    - nosequel 15y ago
      NSA gets their money whether you like it or not. They certainly have people in charge who talk to the legislative branch, but they aren't MBA/marketing people. The are usually ex-generals. Other agencies might seek outside contractors, but the NSA is one of the few who do most of their work themselves. I didn't work there, but that was my understanding at the time I worked in other parts of the government.
      - marshallp 15y ago
        Doesn't matter about their backgrounds, mba or ex-general, people who rise to executive levels rub shoulders with investors at cocktail parties and deals happen.

PakG1 15y ago

We're not aware of what they have that's considered classified. Back in the 70s, a former prof of mine was doing his phd. He was trying to figure stuff out and couldn't. Through one turn or another, he said the DoD told him, "OK, kid, come over here, we'll help yo out." He got classified access to see stuff that blew his mind and helped him get going. The point is that back then, at least one guy's experience was that the military helped the university researchers, not the other way around. When I look at some of the capabilities in military hardware today, I wouldn't doubt that the DoD is still way up there. Certainly, a lot of medical innovations (as one example) are still made on the battlefield first, even today.

nosequel 15y ago

How would you know if it is top secret? Most top secret tech never gets seen outside of the top secret circles. Unless you have a TS/SCI clearance, the best you can do is speculate on what exists now. Obviously not all fields are covered in the government, but things that are very important to them (signal intelligence, networking, logistical management, satellite communication) are all very well ahead of the consumer/public space in my experiences.

marshallp 15y ago
I've got doubts about their logistical and abilities, now that they increasingly use private companies to get their stuff around.