5 ms·

Fair point- but how much of that is due to media do you think? Media has spent last 5 years creating false narratives just because they don’t like the orange gu

Fair point- but how much of that is due to media do you think? Media has spent last 5 years creating false narratives just because they don’t like the orange guy is that it has built up pretty much disdain in half of the country. I still remember NYT calling for recession when Trump got elected. I think the root cause of this problem is not those 60% or whatever then number is on the other side, it’s lack of objective and trustworthy institutions like media.

pavlov 4y ago
If you're going to blame it on the media rather than the people who consume and reward this type of media, then you should remember that the harbinger and main producer of this type of narrative is still Fox News. They've been doing it for decades and remain the top-rated cable network in America. They're the very image and foundation of "lamestream media" as Republicans imagine it, but it's not easy to notice the beam in one's own TV-watching eye, I guess.
- mc32 4y ago
  you cannot blame people. Do you blame Russians/Soviets and Chinese when their media are state organs that set agendas and promulgate state positions? Yes, blame the media --all of them they all have abandoned principles of neutrality in favor of ideology and partisanship. It wasn't so during Clinton or Bush's time (not that any of the two were any good).
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - ratww 4y ago
    > Do you blame Russians/Soviets and Chinese when their media are state organs that set agendas and promulgate state positions? In general I don't blame Russians for what Putin is doing, but I will definitely blame a Russian that unapologetically supports the invasion of Ukraine, despite having the means to know otherwise. If I tried to give them another perspective and they tell me to go fuck myself, or if they were actively trying to push an agenda (like it's common in USA political discussions), I would definitely blame them.
    - mc32 4y ago
      I don't know. It's like releasing some endangered species into the wild and then their natural predators come in and have them for dinner. The wolverines or lions or wolves, etc., will do that they do. We cannot blame them for eating the protected species. When media are indoctrinating people and not providing perspectives how do you blame people, even if they have agency and can be considered responsible --just like the wolverine is ultimately responsible but free of blame.
      - ratww 4y ago
        But the media in general is showing other perspectives. Be it on other channels, be it by showing people what "that despicable other side is saying". And there's always neutral media too where others can check. Sure, media is a huge problem. But people behaving like animals, having no empathy, taking no taking time to reflect upon what they say and taking no time to check other perspectives is what's doing the real damage here.
  - tablespoon 4y ago
    > you cannot blame people. Do you blame Russians/Soviets and Chinese when their media are state organs that set agendas and promulgate state positions? > Yes, blame the media --all of them they all have abandoned principles of neutrality in favor of ideology and partisanship. It wasn't so during Clinton or Bush's time (not that any of the two were any good). I'm not sure if the comparison holds. I think a big difference between the US and China, is that in China there's much less of a positive feedback loop between people's attitudes and media coverage. If the people want and would eat up, say, liberal criticism of the Communist government, they're not going to get it from the Chinese media. So in the US you probably can lay some of the blame on the people: if they start to favor more "ideology and partisanship" over "neutrality," that could cause the media to give them what they want, which then could cause them to want even more "ideology and partisanship." That positive feedback loop then gets you to where we are today, and it's both "the people" and "the media" who are responsible.
    - mc32 4y ago
      I do agree there is a feedback loop with some economic but also political alignment. However, while I agree that the media to some degree is giving people "what they want", the media can stop it (including social media and journalistic media) --they have that power. As you noted in China, the media do restrain themselves from amplifying things they want to suppress and feed their audience the political line of the day. It's not people setting the tone of journalism and media in China, it's the media that is doing that.
      - tablespoon 4y ago
        > It's not people setting the tone of journalism and media in China, it's the media that is doing that. Except in China it's not the media itself setting the tone, it's the authorities who give it commands that it has no choice but to obey. Who gives the American media its commands? Its customers, the people. But it's different because the media also has the choice not to obey, which spreads the responsibility for the outcome between both groups, instead of concentrating it in one or the other.
dwallin 4y ago
That didn’t start with our last president. The other half spent a good part of 8 years spreading racially-tinged false narratives around the previous president. Be careful about partisan blindness.
throwawayzbn 4y ago
> Media has spent last 5 years creating false narratives just because they don’t like the orange guy Nevermind the 8 years before that with the black guy. > the root cause of this problem is not those 60% or whatever then number is on the other side, it’s lack of objective and trustworthy institutions like media. I agree. It takes 2 to tango; it's still important to apply accountability proportionally.

pavlov 4y ago

If you're going to blame it on the media rather than the people who consume and reward this type of media, then you should remember that the harbinger and main producer of this type of narrative is still Fox News. They've been doing it for decades and remain the top-rated cable network in America. They're the very image and foundation of "lamestream media" as Republicans imagine it, but it's not easy to notice the beam in one's own TV-watching eye, I guess.

mc32 4y ago
you cannot blame people. Do you blame Russians/Soviets and Chinese when their media are state organs that set agendas and promulgate state positions? Yes, blame the media --all of them they all have abandoned principles of neutrality in favor of ideology and partisanship. It wasn't so during Clinton or Bush's time (not that any of the two were any good).
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- ratww 4y ago
  > Do you blame Russians/Soviets and Chinese when their media are state organs that set agendas and promulgate state positions? In general I don't blame Russians for what Putin is doing, but I will definitely blame a Russian that unapologetically supports the invasion of Ukraine, despite having the means to know otherwise. If I tried to give them another perspective and they tell me to go fuck myself, or if they were actively trying to push an agenda (like it's common in USA political discussions), I would definitely blame them.
  - mc32 4y ago
    I don't know. It's like releasing some endangered species into the wild and then their natural predators come in and have them for dinner. The wolverines or lions or wolves, etc., will do that they do. We cannot blame them for eating the protected species. When media are indoctrinating people and not providing perspectives how do you blame people, even if they have agency and can be considered responsible --just like the wolverine is ultimately responsible but free of blame.
    - ratww 4y ago
      But the media in general is showing other perspectives. Be it on other channels, be it by showing people what "that despicable other side is saying". And there's always neutral media too where others can check. Sure, media is a huge problem. But people behaving like animals, having no empathy, taking no taking time to reflect upon what they say and taking no time to check other perspectives is what's doing the real damage here.
- tablespoon 4y ago
  > you cannot blame people. Do you blame Russians/Soviets and Chinese when their media are state organs that set agendas and promulgate state positions? > Yes, blame the media --all of them they all have abandoned principles of neutrality in favor of ideology and partisanship. It wasn't so during Clinton or Bush's time (not that any of the two were any good). I'm not sure if the comparison holds. I think a big difference between the US and China, is that in China there's much less of a positive feedback loop between people's attitudes and media coverage. If the people want and would eat up, say, liberal criticism of the Communist government, they're not going to get it from the Chinese media. So in the US you probably can lay some of the blame on the people: if they start to favor more "ideology and partisanship" over "neutrality," that could cause the media to give them what they want, which then could cause them to want even more "ideology and partisanship." That positive feedback loop then gets you to where we are today, and it's both "the people" and "the media" who are responsible.
  - mc32 4y ago
    I do agree there is a feedback loop with some economic but also political alignment. However, while I agree that the media to some degree is giving people "what they want", the media can stop it (including social media and journalistic media) --they have that power. As you noted in China, the media do restrain themselves from amplifying things they want to suppress and feed their audience the political line of the day. It's not people setting the tone of journalism and media in China, it's the media that is doing that.
    - tablespoon 4y ago
      > It's not people setting the tone of journalism and media in China, it's the media that is doing that. Except in China it's not the media itself setting the tone, it's the authorities who give it commands that it has no choice but to obey. Who gives the American media its commands? Its customers, the people. But it's different because the media also has the choice not to obey, which spreads the responsibility for the outcome between both groups, instead of concentrating it in one or the other.

dwallin 4y ago

That didn’t start with our last president. The other half spent a good part of 8 years spreading racially-tinged false narratives around the previous president. Be careful about partisan blindness.

throwawayzbn 4y ago

> Media has spent last 5 years creating false narratives just because they don’t like the orange guy Nevermind the 8 years before that with the black guy. > the root cause of this problem is not those 60% or whatever then number is on the other side, it’s lack of objective and trustworthy institutions like media. I agree. It takes 2 to tango; it's still important to apply accountability proportionally.