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Great if you're able to do that easily. Please understand that some of the most brilliant minds in the world get up in the morning usually somewhere in Californ

by jrm4 4y ago

Great if you're able to do that easily. Please understand that some of the most brilliant minds in the world get up in the morning usually somewhere in California, and work many hours in the day, and their literal job is to figure out how to subvert this.

twayt 4y ago
The greatest trick they pulled is convincing people like you that you have no personal autonomy. It’s one thing to show you stimulating content once you open the app but it’s a whole another level of self-deception to convince yourself that you can’t prevent yourself from opening the app.
raverbashing 4y ago
reminds me that "the greatest minds at 1600 Amphitheater Parkway" made it harder to open your list of apps on Play Store but never mind Open the list, select 'TikTok' and click 'Uninstall' This is not to be demeaning. But if you're having too much trouble disconnecting from it, then that should be the way. You can still see videos in a browser.
- jrm4 4y ago
  Preaching to the choir here, I don't do any social media on my phone at all. But still, kind of unhelpful. What do we do about them?
- SinParadise 4y ago
  this is the personal responsibility or bootstraps argument in a poorly made sheep's clothing.
- nextaccountic 4y ago
  It's addictive. Many users don't uninstall because they are addicted, and the social media companies exploit this for profit.
TechBro8615 4y ago
Unfortunately regulations will always be one step behind. Asking for them is victim mentality. We’re responsible for our own choices. Everyone might get addicted to TikTok for some period. But everyone needn’t stay addicted to TikTok. (Of course I use “TikTok” as a placeholder for any infinitely consumable feed of targeted content.) Regulation has a place. For example, an obvious and easy win would be to pass a bill requiring any product with a consumable feed to offer and default to an option to sort it in reverse chronological order. But regulation is a reactive and slow strategy to shrinking a problem that continues to metastasize. There are more proactive social strategies available to us. Education is free. Self-control is free. Unfortunately, they’re only “free” modulo the minutes of attention we can allocate to them from our finite lifetime supply. I wonder, how many minutes of education or self-introspection is required to prevent one future minute of app usage? I’m optimistic this ratio is favorable, so that once people sufficiently internalize the effect of infinite consumable feeds, they will naturally reduce their self-sabotaging usage of them. People will adapt. It will just take a while. Sometimes you gotta get burned to learn not to touch the stove. In the meantime, we could require the products to provide resources and tools to reduce addiction (like HN’s noprocrast). And we should also find a way to blunt the impact of social media on those who have not yet begun their journey with its addiction (like children, or people yet to be born into our satirical dystopia of a society). If kids are glamorizing social media before they are old enough to use it, they will not have an easy experience separating themselves from it later in life. Cigarette smoking rates are way down since twenty years ago when we started convincing children it was gross and uncool. We can do that with social media too.
- piva00 4y ago
  > Unfortunately regulations will always be one step behind. Asking for them is victim mentality. We’re responsible for our own choices. We are responsible for our own choices until we aren't. Until we are deceived, directed, subverted to some choices. If that wasn't true then the whole PR + advertisement industries wouldn't be as massive and effective as they are. I do recommend watching Adam Curtis' "The Century of the Self" to dispel a little the myth that we are solely responsible for our choices... We are accountable to them, we suffer the consequences of them but definitely not solely responsible. "Victim mentality" is too big of a sweeping statement for this case, actually I'd consider it extremely dismissive of pretty complicated human behaviours.
root_axis 4y ago
> some of the most brilliant minds in the world Some of the most brilliant minds in the world are working on anything you could name. > their literal job is to figure out how to subvert this. I mean sure, but at the end of the day all we're talking about here is an app that shows you a sequence of entertaining videos, it's not streaming directly into your brain stem, it's not fundamentally different from any of the other addictive things that have existed on the internet for years. Frankly, it's not even that important... So what if you waste your time looking at a bunch of random videos? I personally know people who spend 6+ hours a day on twitch, youtube, minecraft etc, they don't frame themselves as victims being subverted by the insidious machinations of majong, it's understood that they simply enjoy minecraft so they play it a lot, sometimes more than they know they should, but that's just life, there is nothing special about tiktok that merits this subversion of agency narrative.
- jrm4 4y ago
  Let's try it like this -- a disproportionate and extremely high number of the most brilliant minds in the world work in Silicon Valley. Overwhelmingly, that work is essentially "harvesting the behavior and attention of human beings for profit, most often through advertising" That describes all of social media and all of FAANG to various extents. Those are facts. Up until now I haven't said anything about whether this is good or bad, and I'm still not saying "this means we should shut it down." But I've seen too much to suggest that it makes sense to hand-wave this phenomenon away and say "it's just life." No. It's worth studying and doing our best to determine how dangerous this is.

by jrm4 4y ago

twayt 4y ago

The greatest trick they pulled is convincing people like you that you have no personal autonomy. It’s one thing to show you stimulating content once you open the app but it’s a whole another level of self-deception to convince yourself that you can’t prevent yourself from opening the app.

raverbashing 4y ago

reminds me that "the greatest minds at 1600 Amphitheater Parkway" made it harder to open your list of apps on Play Store but never mind Open the list, select 'TikTok' and click 'Uninstall' This is not to be demeaning. But if you're having too much trouble disconnecting from it, then that should be the way. You can still see videos in a browser.

jrm4 4y ago
Preaching to the choir here, I don't do any social media on my phone at all. But still, kind of unhelpful. What do we do about them?
SinParadise 4y ago
this is the personal responsibility or bootstraps argument in a poorly made sheep's clothing.
nextaccountic 4y ago
It's addictive. Many users don't uninstall because they are addicted, and the social media companies exploit this for profit.

TechBro8615 4y ago

Unfortunately regulations will always be one step behind. Asking for them is victim mentality. We’re responsible for our own choices. Everyone might get addicted to TikTok for some period. But everyone needn’t stay addicted to TikTok. (Of course I use “TikTok” as a placeholder for any infinitely consumable feed of targeted content.) Regulation has a place. For example, an obvious and easy win would be to pass a bill requiring any product with a consumable feed to offer and default to an option to sort it in reverse chronological order. But regulation is a reactive and slow strategy to shrinking a problem that continues to metastasize. There are more proactive social strategies available to us. Education is free. Self-control is free. Unfortunately, they’re only “free” modulo the minutes of attention we can allocate to them from our finite lifetime supply. I wonder, how many minutes of education or self-introspection is required to prevent one future minute of app usage? I’m optimistic this ratio is favorable, so that once people sufficiently internalize the effect of infinite consumable feeds, they will naturally reduce their self-sabotaging usage of them. People will adapt. It will just take a while. Sometimes you gotta get burned to learn not to touch the stove. In the meantime, we could require the products to provide resources and tools to reduce addiction (like HN’s noprocrast). And we should also find a way to blunt the impact of social media on those who have not yet begun their journey with its addiction (like children, or people yet to be born into our satirical dystopia of a society). If kids are glamorizing social media before they are old enough to use it, they will not have an easy experience separating themselves from it later in life. Cigarette smoking rates are way down since twenty years ago when we started convincing children it was gross and uncool. We can do that with social media too.

piva00 4y ago
> Unfortunately regulations will always be one step behind. Asking for them is victim mentality. We’re responsible for our own choices. We are responsible for our own choices until we aren't. Until we are deceived, directed, subverted to some choices. If that wasn't true then the whole PR + advertisement industries wouldn't be as massive and effective as they are. I do recommend watching Adam Curtis' "The Century of the Self" to dispel a little the myth that we are solely responsible for our choices... We are accountable to them, we suffer the consequences of them but definitely not solely responsible. "Victim mentality" is too big of a sweeping statement for this case, actually I'd consider it extremely dismissive of pretty complicated human behaviours.

root_axis 4y ago

> some of the most brilliant minds in the world Some of the most brilliant minds in the world are working on anything you could name. > their literal job is to figure out how to subvert this. I mean sure, but at the end of the day all we're talking about here is an app that shows you a sequence of entertaining videos, it's not streaming directly into your brain stem, it's not fundamentally different from any of the other addictive things that have existed on the internet for years. Frankly, it's not even that important... So what if you waste your time looking at a bunch of random videos? I personally know people who spend 6+ hours a day on twitch, youtube, minecraft etc, they don't frame themselves as victims being subverted by the insidious machinations of majong, it's understood that they simply enjoy minecraft so they play it a lot, sometimes more than they know they should, but that's just life, there is nothing special about tiktok that merits this subversion of agency narrative.

jrm4 4y ago
Let's try it like this -- a disproportionate and extremely high number of the most brilliant minds in the world work in Silicon Valley. Overwhelmingly, that work is essentially "harvesting the behavior and attention of human beings for profit, most often through advertising" That describes all of social media and all of FAANG to various extents. Those are facts. Up until now I haven't said anything about whether this is good or bad, and I'm still not saying "this means we should shut it down." But I've seen too much to suggest that it makes sense to hand-wave this phenomenon away and say "it's just life." No. It's worth studying and doing our best to determine how dangerous this is.