4 ms·

Chess has always had this dichotomy over free/paid services. (a bit not unlike programming tools). I love lichess.org but make no mistake: without the dedicati

by sireat 4y ago

Chess has always had this dichotomy over free/paid services. (a bit not unlike programming tools). I love lichess.org but make no mistake: without the dedication of one talented Scala programmer willing to underpay themselves that site would not exist. Commercial sites can provide more services and offer more opportunities to chess professionals simply due to the funding model. Disclaimer: I've played over 100k online chess games since 1992. Starting with original ICS (client was on Xwindows) before ICS/FICS split drama, then chessbase.com, then chess.com and now lichess.org. I slightly prefer lichess but play on chess.com as well.

synu 4y ago
Open source in general wouldn't exist without lots of people who contribute and underpay themselves for it, but I'm not sure what I'm not supposed to be making a mistake about? Can you clarify?
- sireat 4y ago
  I meant to say that lichess.org is a bit of an outlier for a great service based on FOSS principles and a donation model. There are many chessplayers who think lichess > chess because it is absolutely free. That is not a sufficient condition for greatness. Having a paid model is not a horrible thing. It is not given that a nice FOSS project is sustainable. There are plenty of free projects which went nowhere. Only a handful FOSS projects can support themselves (vue, lichess and very few others). Even worse, there are many formerly great FOSS projects half-abandonded when the original creator decided to get a "real job". That is what worries me with lichess - the bus factor of one. Yes I have lichess repo on my computer but that is not sufficient. As I have grown older I've come to appreciate the value of paying for things well made.
  - eloisant 4y ago
    I guess we'll only know for sure when Thibault loses interest in lichess or gets hit by a bus, but I think lichess could continue without him. There are only people working with him, he's not alone in the project. And other people have access to the servers so even if he dies suddenly without having time to do a hand-off the project could still continue.
  - synu 4y ago
    Lichess has >300 contributors. Probably not all of them could take over the project, but probably some could if needed. It also accepts donations, so isn't an unpaid model (it's just designed to cover costs, not generate profits). - https://github.com/lichess-org/lila https://github.com/lichess-org/lila - https://lichess.org/patron https://lichess.org/patron
- Aicy 4y ago
  Not the same. With opensource tools businesses often do contribute back, via their paid employees. This is because the business wants to use the tool, but wants some new features / bugfix, and the opensource license means they legally have to contribute back to the opensource project if they want to add that feature and keep using the project. With lichess the players are almost entirely just consumers of a free product. > Open source in general wouldn't exist without lots of people who contribute and underpay themselves for it If you want proof this statement is wrong just look at the open source companies that were created by for-profit companies, such as React by Facebook, Visual Studio Code by Microsoft, or Golang by Google. These are some of the biggest opens source projects, developed by very highly paid software engineers. All that said, of course there is many OSS projects out there maintained by some unpaid person doing it out of the kindness of their heart. It goes both ways of course, when a business open sources their project they benefit from the contributions of others.
register 4y ago
100K games!!! That's quite an achievement. I am an average club player and I have played about 15K in more than 20 years of playing.
- shric 4y ago
  I joined lichess in Nov 2018 and have played 15,269 games. It'll be more by the time most people read this :p
  - register 4y ago
    With an average length of 5 minutes per game ( given a 3+2 time control ) and assuming you don't play more than 8 hours per day this is around 162 full days spent playing chess. Also this is an achievement!
    - shric 4y ago
      Yeah, not particularly proud of the "achievement". I play for fun. My rating has not increased much since I started because I don't really do deliberate practice. I don't analyse my games, etc. You're pretty much spot on. My average game length is 5 minutes and 7 seconds. lichess tells me my time spent playing is 54 days, 5 hours and 6 minutes and now 15,273 games. It works out to average just under an hour a day, and I play most days. Breakdown: 6,157 bullet (90+% are 1+0 but a few 2+1) 7,430 blitz (90+% are 5+0 but a few 3+2) 1,368 rapid (99+% are 10+0) 184 classical (100% are 30+0) I've also played a small handful of correspondence, chess960, etc. which is why it doesn't quite add up.
      - xrd 4y ago
        This conversation is very nostalgic for me as I used to play a lot with my father (who passed away almost 20 years ago). Now, my seven year old daughter seems to be very intrigued by chess. You said you don't analyze your games? Is there a standard methodology for analyzing chess games, especially given that everything being discussed here is happening electronically? I would be fascinated to hear about how people are combining technology with the practice of chess to ramp up their learning efficacy.
blub 4y ago
Don’t you regret wasting so much time? Or do you just suppress these thoughts :-)
- sireat 4y ago
  Time enjoyed is not wasted :) Still it is a bit of addiction and I try to limit myself to 4 - 6 games in one sitting.
- matsemann 4y ago
  I've got "Time spent playing: 17 days" on Lichess. Over a few years, so not too bad. But I feel it's worth it. It's not like it's all-consuming. Just a few games a day to relax. Same when I played World of Warcraft in HS. Had probably multiples of that total playtime. I got "nothing to show" for all that time. But it was time well spent I feel. I had fun, and it's where I would hang and chat with friends during the evenings etc., so no regrets.
- LocalPCGuy 4y ago
  Entertainment is not a waste. Arguably playing a game like chess probably has mental benefits over other forms, so it could be argued that people choosing this form of entertainment over another is an optimization in and off itself. Some people have days of time driving 4x4s, or sitting on the beach, or reading a book. Do you consider all of that time "wasted" also? (hint, it isn't, for that person)
casion 4y ago
Hello fellow chess traveller! I was one of the first 100 on ICS, first helper on ICC, TD on FICS, ran 2 popular chess bots, wrote 100s of help files etc... Sadly I'm long over 100k games, I was around 80k when I left ICC :( I feel similarly. I play mostly on Lichess but chess.com has features which I feel are easier to use, so I use both. I find this either/or discussion to be strange since both have their strengths and weaknesses. It's a pittance for anyone working in tech to support both, and the competition has largely been amazing for the improvement of both services. It's interesting how 27 years ago the same type of drama happened, even when FICS (the free option at the time) was a carbon copy of ICC, AND you could connect to either with the same clients. Somehow people still found ways to say one was better than the other up until the point where they became sufficiently differentiated and the discussion largely stopped.

by sireat 4y ago

synu 4y ago

Open source in general wouldn't exist without lots of people who contribute and underpay themselves for it, but I'm not sure what I'm not supposed to be making a mistake about? Can you clarify?

sireat 4y ago
I meant to say that lichess.org is a bit of an outlier for a great service based on FOSS principles and a donation model. There are many chessplayers who think lichess > chess because it is absolutely free. That is not a sufficient condition for greatness. Having a paid model is not a horrible thing. It is not given that a nice FOSS project is sustainable. There are plenty of free projects which went nowhere. Only a handful FOSS projects can support themselves (vue, lichess and very few others). Even worse, there are many formerly great FOSS projects half-abandonded when the original creator decided to get a "real job". That is what worries me with lichess - the bus factor of one. Yes I have lichess repo on my computer but that is not sufficient. As I have grown older I've come to appreciate the value of paying for things well made.
- eloisant 4y ago
  I guess we'll only know for sure when Thibault loses interest in lichess or gets hit by a bus, but I think lichess could continue without him. There are only people working with him, he's not alone in the project. And other people have access to the servers so even if he dies suddenly without having time to do a hand-off the project could still continue.
- synu 4y ago
  Lichess has >300 contributors. Probably not all of them could take over the project, but probably some could if needed. It also accepts donations, so isn't an unpaid model (it's just designed to cover costs, not generate profits). - https://github.com/lichess-org/lila https://github.com/lichess-org/lila - https://lichess.org/patron https://lichess.org/patron
Aicy 4y ago
Not the same. With opensource tools businesses often do contribute back, via their paid employees. This is because the business wants to use the tool, but wants some new features / bugfix, and the opensource license means they legally have to contribute back to the opensource project if they want to add that feature and keep using the project. With lichess the players are almost entirely just consumers of a free product. > Open source in general wouldn't exist without lots of people who contribute and underpay themselves for it If you want proof this statement is wrong just look at the open source companies that were created by for-profit companies, such as React by Facebook, Visual Studio Code by Microsoft, or Golang by Google. These are some of the biggest opens source projects, developed by very highly paid software engineers. All that said, of course there is many OSS projects out there maintained by some unpaid person doing it out of the kindness of their heart. It goes both ways of course, when a business open sources their project they benefit from the contributions of others.

100K games!!! That's quite an achievement. I am an average club player and I have played about 15K in more than 20 years of playing.

shric 4y ago
I joined lichess in Nov 2018 and have played 15,269 games. It'll be more by the time most people read this :p
- register 4y ago
  With an average length of 5 minutes per game ( given a 3+2 time control ) and assuming you don't play more than 8 hours per day this is around 162 full days spent playing chess. Also this is an achievement!
  - shric 4y ago
    Yeah, not particularly proud of the "achievement". I play for fun. My rating has not increased much since I started because I don't really do deliberate practice. I don't analyse my games, etc. You're pretty much spot on. My average game length is 5 minutes and 7 seconds. lichess tells me my time spent playing is 54 days, 5 hours and 6 minutes and now 15,273 games. It works out to average just under an hour a day, and I play most days. Breakdown: 6,157 bullet (90+% are 1+0 but a few 2+1) 7,430 blitz (90+% are 5+0 but a few 3+2) 1,368 rapid (99+% are 10+0) 184 classical (100% are 30+0) I've also played a small handful of correspondence, chess960, etc. which is why it doesn't quite add up.
    - xrd 4y ago
      This conversation is very nostalgic for me as I used to play a lot with my father (who passed away almost 20 years ago). Now, my seven year old daughter seems to be very intrigued by chess. You said you don't analyze your games? Is there a standard methodology for analyzing chess games, especially given that everything being discussed here is happening electronically? I would be fascinated to hear about how people are combining technology with the practice of chess to ramp up their learning efficacy.

blub 4y ago

Don’t you regret wasting so much time? Or do you just suppress these thoughts :-)

sireat 4y ago
Time enjoyed is not wasted :) Still it is a bit of addiction and I try to limit myself to 4 - 6 games in one sitting.
matsemann 4y ago
I've got "Time spent playing: 17 days" on Lichess. Over a few years, so not too bad. But I feel it's worth it. It's not like it's all-consuming. Just a few games a day to relax. Same when I played World of Warcraft in HS. Had probably multiples of that total playtime. I got "nothing to show" for all that time. But it was time well spent I feel. I had fun, and it's where I would hang and chat with friends during the evenings etc., so no regrets.
LocalPCGuy 4y ago
Entertainment is not a waste. Arguably playing a game like chess probably has mental benefits over other forms, so it could be argued that people choosing this form of entertainment over another is an optimization in and off itself. Some people have days of time driving 4x4s, or sitting on the beach, or reading a book. Do you consider all of that time "wasted" also? (hint, it isn't, for that person)

casion 4y ago

Hello fellow chess traveller! I was one of the first 100 on ICS, first helper on ICC, TD on FICS, ran 2 popular chess bots, wrote 100s of help files etc... Sadly I'm long over 100k games, I was around 80k when I left ICC :( I feel similarly. I play mostly on Lichess but chess.com has features which I feel are easier to use, so I use both. I find this either/or discussion to be strange since both have their strengths and weaknesses. It's a pittance for anyone working in tech to support both, and the competition has largely been amazing for the improvement of both services. It's interesting how 27 years ago the same type of drama happened, even when FICS (the free option at the time) was a carbon copy of ICC, AND you could connect to either with the same clients. Somehow people still found ways to say one was better than the other up until the point where they became sufficiently differentiated and the discussion largely stopped.