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> Maybe we didn't punish contrary opinions quite as badly as China / Russia Understatement of the year. We also currently don’t outlaw homosexuality or religio

> Maybe we didn't punish contrary opinions quite as badly as China / Russia Understatement of the year. We also currently don’t outlaw homosexuality or religion or engage in genocide and we elect our leaders democratically among other things.

withinboredom 4y ago
You should probably check your facts. All but the first one is false. They have engaged in genocide: see Native Americans; trail of tears. The USA is a republic, not a democracy.
- causi 4y ago
  I believe he means currently, not ever in its history.
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    Then why even bother having the conversation? No one is free of guilt here, which was my point.
    - zamfi 4y ago
      Guilt is not a binary. When one group is actively trying to absolve its sins of the past, and the other doesn’t even recognize them while doubling-down, the claim that “everyone has sins” an abdication of the idea that behavior matters.
    - causi 4y ago
      Because you can't resurrect people who died hundreds of years ago but you can potentially stop a genocide that's ongoing.
- afiori 4y ago
  Republic and democracy refer to two different axis. Republic is about how the vertex of government is structured. Democracy is about where the executive/legislative power comes from. The US is both, you could argue that Canada is not a republic as they have a recognized queen, but it would be a stretch as she has essentially zero power there.
  - withinboredom 4y ago
    They said they elect their leaders democratically which is simply not true no matter how you want to phrase it. The president is elected by an electoral college and not a democratic vote.
    - brobdingnagians 4y ago
      But the electoral college ultimately derives its members from people who are voted on by the general electorate. The electoral college is an abstraction so that the states in the United States are able to have a check and balance on federal power. Having a direct democracy of 300 million people would be a bad idea, a lot of political philosophy has been written on why. If you build on a library that builds on library using AGPL license, you are still bound by the AGPL license, no matter how abstracted. If your country ultimately derives for the people, you are democratic. It is just that the USA is technically a democratic Republic, and intentionally so.
      - withinboredom 4y ago
        That doesn’t magically make it a democratic election. In fact, the way you describe it working is a relatively new way of doing things and varies from state to state. It is not uniform. Also, if you paid any attention at all in the last election, you’d realize how tenuous it all really is and in multiple elections, the actual person voted in wasn’t even the winner by popular vote. So by definition, it can not be democratic.
        cycomanic 4y ago
        > That doesn’t magically make it a democratic election. In fact, the way you describe it working is a relatively new way of doing things and varies from state to state. It is not uniform. Also, if you paid any attention at all in the last election, you’d realize how tenuous it all really is and in multiple elections, the actual person voted in wasn’t even the winner by popular vote. So by definition, it can not be democratic. Now I am by no means a fan of the electoral system and I think one van argue that the US fails to live up to being democratic in practice for several reasons (I consider the electoral college a very minot part of the issues), however saying that it can not be democratic by principle or definition it can not be a democracy. I mean let's remember that in Athens (where the term comes from) only a minority of male citizens was allowed to vote.
- pessimizer 4y ago
  And we certainly still do genocides, we just don't do them locally.

withinboredom 4y ago

You should probably check your facts. All but the first one is false. They have engaged in genocide: see Native Americans; trail of tears. The USA is a republic, not a democracy.

causi 4y ago
I believe he means currently, not ever in its history.
- withinboredom 4y ago
  Then why even bother having the conversation? No one is free of guilt here, which was my point.
  - zamfi 4y ago
    Guilt is not a binary. When one group is actively trying to absolve its sins of the past, and the other doesn’t even recognize them while doubling-down, the claim that “everyone has sins” an abdication of the idea that behavior matters.
  - causi 4y ago
    Because you can't resurrect people who died hundreds of years ago but you can potentially stop a genocide that's ongoing.
afiori 4y ago
Republic and democracy refer to two different axis. Republic is about how the vertex of government is structured. Democracy is about where the executive/legislative power comes from. The US is both, you could argue that Canada is not a republic as they have a recognized queen, but it would be a stretch as she has essentially zero power there.
- withinboredom 4y ago
  They said they elect their leaders democratically which is simply not true no matter how you want to phrase it. The president is elected by an electoral college and not a democratic vote.
  - brobdingnagians 4y ago
    But the electoral college ultimately derives its members from people who are voted on by the general electorate. The electoral college is an abstraction so that the states in the United States are able to have a check and balance on federal power. Having a direct democracy of 300 million people would be a bad idea, a lot of political philosophy has been written on why. If you build on a library that builds on library using AGPL license, you are still bound by the AGPL license, no matter how abstracted. If your country ultimately derives for the people, you are democratic. It is just that the USA is technically a democratic Republic, and intentionally so.
    - withinboredom 4y ago
      That doesn’t magically make it a democratic election. In fact, the way you describe it working is a relatively new way of doing things and varies from state to state. It is not uniform. Also, if you paid any attention at all in the last election, you’d realize how tenuous it all really is and in multiple elections, the actual person voted in wasn’t even the winner by popular vote. So by definition, it can not be democratic.
      - cycomanic 4y ago
        > That doesn’t magically make it a democratic election. In fact, the way you describe it working is a relatively new way of doing things and varies from state to state. It is not uniform. Also, if you paid any attention at all in the last election, you’d realize how tenuous it all really is and in multiple elections, the actual person voted in wasn’t even the winner by popular vote. So by definition, it can not be democratic. Now I am by no means a fan of the electoral system and I think one van argue that the US fails to live up to being democratic in practice for several reasons (I consider the electoral college a very minot part of the issues), however saying that it can not be democratic by principle or definition it can not be a democracy. I mean let's remember that in Athens (where the term comes from) only a minority of male citizens was allowed to vote.
pessimizer 4y ago
And we certainly still do genocides, we just don't do them locally.