8 ms·

> Mind you: this is not part-time work, or even standard 9-to-5. It is hard, continuous work, with weekends and nights spent in the lab or writing research pape

> Mind you: this is not part-time work, or even standard 9-to-5. It is hard, continuous work, with weekends and nights spent in the lab or writing research papers (see e.g. here). Journals advise graduate students to work most weekends and long hours, because that’s how you succeed. Or could the “because” be that you find the work deeply intellectually stimulating to the point where it’s hard to step away? I guess maybe that crowd isn’t writing about it, since they’re off doing, you know, science. This is my problem with the monthly “down with PhDs!” screed that shows up on the front page of HN. There is a huge anti-survivor bias.

ok_dad 4y ago
“They hate us ‘cause they ain’t us” probably isn’t a valid explanation. Grad students are worked like dogs, everyone knows it, and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor.
- chrisseaton 4y ago
  > Grad students are worked like dogs They do... but the thing is the work for themselves, which I think is a different kind of hard work. > and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor Is that the goal?
  - ok_dad 4y ago
    > they work for themselves They work for professors who sometimes care that they eventually get a PhD and sometimes don’t care if they live or die. I love hard work, but not if it’s paired with a toxic environment where I’m going to be working like a slave for a decade and maybe will never achieve anything close to the impact I thought I’d have. > goal? Not sure, but if not what is the goal? To be in a research lab forever as an assistant or to do your own research? The latter requires power and position, like a professorship.
    - chrisseaton 4y ago
      > They work for professors I think we need to break this mindset. It’s your research. Not your professors. By the end, your professor probably doesn’t really understand it anymore because you’ve pushed the envelope beyond them. > but if not what is the goal? Go into industry.
      - epups 4y ago
        And can you publish your ground breaking research without being authorised by your boss? Can you even continue to do it meaningfully if he or she refuses? If not, then you are definitely not working for yourself.
        chrisseaton 4y ago
        > And can you publish your ground breaking research without being authorised by your boss? As a student. Yes? How would they stop you?
        epups 4y ago
        In Biology and Physics at least, the professor owns the data because they funded the project. They also have final say about authorship and can remove you from a paper at any moment, with no recourse.
  - NotOscarWilde 4y ago
    > > and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor > Is that the goal? I have seen only a small slice of all the theoretical computer science PhD students in my parts of the world (Central and Western Europe) but almost universally they passionately loved their work (both research and teaching) and would prefer to do it in the future. "Becoming a professor" is one of the easiest ways to continue doing what you are doing, so I would say yes, it is a goal. Like I have said elsewhere also, we are blessed to have many industry jobs in CS which are quite mentally challenging, and so for us it does not need to be the only choice. But still, a permanent academic position offers many things that the industry cannot -- hence a goal for many.

ok_dad 4y ago

“They hate us ‘cause they ain’t us” probably isn’t a valid explanation. Grad students are worked like dogs, everyone knows it, and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor.

chrisseaton 4y ago
> Grad students are worked like dogs They do... but the thing is the work for themselves, which I think is a different kind of hard work. > and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor Is that the goal?
- ok_dad 4y ago
  > they work for themselves They work for professors who sometimes care that they eventually get a PhD and sometimes don’t care if they live or die. I love hard work, but not if it’s paired with a toxic environment where I’m going to be working like a slave for a decade and maybe will never achieve anything close to the impact I thought I’d have. > goal? Not sure, but if not what is the goal? To be in a research lab forever as an assistant or to do your own research? The latter requires power and position, like a professorship.
  - chrisseaton 4y ago
    > They work for professors I think we need to break this mindset. It’s your research. Not your professors. By the end, your professor probably doesn’t really understand it anymore because you’ve pushed the envelope beyond them. > but if not what is the goal? Go into industry.
    - epups 4y ago
      And can you publish your ground breaking research without being authorised by your boss? Can you even continue to do it meaningfully if he or she refuses? If not, then you are definitely not working for yourself.
      - chrisseaton 4y ago
        > And can you publish your ground breaking research without being authorised by your boss? As a student. Yes? How would they stop you?
        epups 4y ago
        In Biology and Physics at least, the professor owns the data because they funded the project. They also have final say about authorship and can remove you from a paper at any moment, with no recourse.
- NotOscarWilde 4y ago
  > > and in the end only few of them attain their goal of becoming a professor > Is that the goal? I have seen only a small slice of all the theoretical computer science PhD students in my parts of the world (Central and Western Europe) but almost universally they passionately loved their work (both research and teaching) and would prefer to do it in the future. "Becoming a professor" is one of the easiest ways to continue doing what you are doing, so I would say yes, it is a goal. Like I have said elsewhere also, we are blessed to have many industry jobs in CS which are quite mentally challenging, and so for us it does not need to be the only choice. But still, a permanent academic position offers many things that the industry cannot -- hence a goal for many.