4 ms·

Everything you say is true. But it's not an argument. Failing to live up to all your stated values in past is not a reason to give up on then for all time.

headsoup 4y ago
I think the argument is that there is not so much difference in result at the end, even though the projected image appears opposite.
Jochim 4y ago
It's not about giving up on them. It's about being willing to accept that you haven't lived up to those values and make the changes necessary to uphold them. While still in the wrong, how seriously should China or Russia take the country that lead the invasion and occupation of Iraq/Afghanistan for 20 odd years when it offers it's condemnation of their own ambitions? To be frank, how can we expect anyone to take our condemnation seriously when we are currently doing the same things or have let the same things go unpunished in recent memory. We refuse to hold our own torturers and war criminals to proper account.
- gopher_space 4y ago
  Do you feel at all represented by your elected officials? Did you vote for them? If not, why would you accept the burden of guilt for their actions? A relative handful of people made all the torture decisions for us. I don't think I want them hiding behind the flag, or me.
  - Jochim 4y ago
    > Do you feel at all represented by your elected officials? Did you vote for them? If not, why would you accept the burden of guilt for their actions? Personally it varies depending on the official. I think at some level we do bear some responsibility for those who represent us, I don't necessarily believe that crosses into guilt as much it does a call to action. The corrupt and unethical rely on a combination of apathy and normalisation in order to get away with their actions. > A relative handful of people made all the torture decisions for us. I don't think I want them hiding behind the flag, or me. I want them pushed out from behind the flag and into a jail cell.
pessimizer 4y ago
Russia and China also have lists of noble values that they don't live up to. That's not a distinction.

headsoup 4y ago

I think the argument is that there is not so much difference in result at the end, even though the projected image appears opposite.

Jochim 4y ago

It's not about giving up on them. It's about being willing to accept that you haven't lived up to those values and make the changes necessary to uphold them. While still in the wrong, how seriously should China or Russia take the country that lead the invasion and occupation of Iraq/Afghanistan for 20 odd years when it offers it's condemnation of their own ambitions? To be frank, how can we expect anyone to take our condemnation seriously when we are currently doing the same things or have let the same things go unpunished in recent memory. We refuse to hold our own torturers and war criminals to proper account.

gopher_space 4y ago
Do you feel at all represented by your elected officials? Did you vote for them? If not, why would you accept the burden of guilt for their actions? A relative handful of people made all the torture decisions for us. I don't think I want them hiding behind the flag, or me.
- Jochim 4y ago
  > Do you feel at all represented by your elected officials? Did you vote for them? If not, why would you accept the burden of guilt for their actions? Personally it varies depending on the official. I think at some level we do bear some responsibility for those who represent us, I don't necessarily believe that crosses into guilt as much it does a call to action. The corrupt and unethical rely on a combination of apathy and normalisation in order to get away with their actions. > A relative handful of people made all the torture decisions for us. I don't think I want them hiding behind the flag, or me. I want them pushed out from behind the flag and into a jail cell.

pessimizer 4y ago

Russia and China also have lists of noble values that they don't live up to. That's not a distinction.