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I love PHP, it fits that niche of having a fast startup like Perl, while having a big standard library like Python. However after using Go and Rust, I don't li

I love PHP, it fits that niche of having a fast startup like Perl, while having a big standard library like Python. However after using Go and Rust, I don't like the idea of the package manager being this separate thing (Composer). I think the package manager should be part of the PHP distribution itself, not some other thing that people have to find and install separately. I am fine if people want to implement other/better package managers, but I think the PHP distribution should include something, if only a rudimentary tool.

CharlesW 4y ago
What do you think the advantages would be over a de-facto standard?
- svnpenn 4y ago
  Think about it like this. How would you feel about Go, Rust or Node, removing their package managers from all new versions? Then they make a blog post saying, "we are going to let the rich community handle any future work of developing and distributing a package manager".
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    PHP is a community project where Go and Rust are corporate sponsored projects. It makes sense for php where it would seem foreign to those projects.
muglug 4y ago
Composer is the de facto package manager for PHP. I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it. I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok.
- svnpenn 4y ago
  > NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you install the Node runtime, it comes with NPM. So it seems you're not correct about this, unless you are referring to some other runtime. And even if you are, why would some other runtime include NPM?
  - tmh88j 4y ago
    >>I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok. >I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you install the Node runtime...And even if you are, why would some other runtime include NPM? Node nor any other package managers are included with JS. You seem to be emphasizing their point.
    - svnpenn 4y ago
      huh? Node is a JavaScript runtime. Its the "base thing". Its "JavaScript", at least in the sense that we are talking about here. So saying "Node isn't included", doesn't really make sense. When you install Node, you also get NPM, which is essentially what I said in the previous comment.
      - tmh88j 4y ago
        > When you install Node, you also get NPM, which is essentially what I said in the previous comment. The other person said that JS also doesn't include a package manager. It sounds like you wanted to take issue with the colloquial use of NPM rather than their point about package managers not being included. > I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok.
        svnpenn 4y ago
        No, what they said was: > NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript which, if you install Node, NPM is included
- duskwuff 4y ago
  > I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it. Back in the day, there was PEAR, but it was never particularly useful.
- nallerooth 4y ago
  > Composer is the de facto package manager for PHP. I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it. According to common PHP culture, there's no need - since it's already good enough. Instead of re-inventing something you can just move on and get your own sh*t done. :) (edit: formatting)
omnimus 4y ago
On the other hand JS now has many package managers yarn, pnpm and even competing runtimes deno, bun that include their package managers and have often incompatible code. Composer is atleast undisputed, embraced and works well. Anything PHP is on there. Package formats are unified not like in JS. Pythons PIP is also separate project.
- black3r 4y ago
  Python's pip is developed separately, but the main repository is operated by PSF (authors of Python), and python's source code nowadays contains the "ensurepip" module to install pip if needed and official binary releases contain pip directly.

CharlesW 4y ago

What do you think the advantages would be over a de-facto standard?

svnpenn 4y ago
Think about it like this. How would you feel about Go, Rust or Node, removing their package managers from all new versions? Then they make a blog post saying, "we are going to let the rich community handle any future work of developing and distributing a package manager".
- ipaddr 4y ago
  PHP is a community project where Go and Rust are corporate sponsored projects. It makes sense for php where it would seem foreign to those projects.

muglug 4y ago

Composer is the de facto package manager for PHP. I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it. I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok.

svnpenn 4y ago
> NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you install the Node runtime, it comes with NPM. So it seems you're not correct about this, unless you are referring to some other runtime. And even if you are, why would some other runtime include NPM?
- tmh88j 4y ago
  >>I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok. >I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here. If you install the Node runtime...And even if you are, why would some other runtime include NPM? Node nor any other package managers are included with JS. You seem to be emphasizing their point.
  - svnpenn 4y ago
    huh? Node is a JavaScript runtime. Its the "base thing". Its "JavaScript", at least in the sense that we are talking about here. So saying "Node isn't included", doesn't really make sense. When you install Node, you also get NPM, which is essentially what I said in the previous comment.
    - tmh88j 4y ago
      > When you install Node, you also get NPM, which is essentially what I said in the previous comment. The other person said that JS also doesn't include a package manager. It sounds like you wanted to take issue with the colloquial use of NPM rather than their point about package managers not being included. > I also don’t believe a bundled package manager is necessary — NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript, and it seems to be doing ok.
      - svnpenn 4y ago
        No, what they said was: > NPM isn’t bundled with JavaScript which, if you install Node, NPM is included
duskwuff 4y ago
> I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it. Back in the day, there was PEAR, but it was never particularly useful.
nallerooth 4y ago
> Composer is the de facto package manager for PHP. I’ve never seen anyone try to compete with it. According to common PHP culture, there's no need - since it's already good enough. Instead of re-inventing something you can just move on and get your own sh*t done. :) (edit: formatting)

omnimus 4y ago

On the other hand JS now has many package managers yarn, pnpm and even competing runtimes deno, bun that include their package managers and have often incompatible code. Composer is atleast undisputed, embraced and works well. Anything PHP is on there. Package formats are unified not like in JS. Pythons PIP is also separate project.

black3r 4y ago
Python's pip is developed separately, but the main repository is operated by PSF (authors of Python), and python's source code nowadays contains the "ensurepip" module to install pip if needed and official binary releases contain pip directly.