4 ms·

Please Stop Citing Tiobe

54 points by nindalf 4y ago

nindalf 4y ago
Hey everyone, I noticed several times over the years people (mis)using TIOBE to support whatever their argument was. Each time someone in the thread would explain the various shortcomings of TIOBE and why we shouldn't use it. I decided to write up the issues so we could just point them towards this link instead.
- an1sotropy 4y ago
  Thanks for writing and sharing this I do not doubt your central claim (that the ranking is derived from merely counting search results, as lampooned by the xkcd example), but I'm curious how are you sure of this, or where is it documented?
  - gus_massa 4y ago
    The details of the calculations are in https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programminglanguages_definition/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programminglanguages_defin...
    - an1sotropy 4y ago
      oh my that is daft (thanks)
pjmlp 4y ago
Whatever, management will keep looking into it when doing hiring decisions.
labrador 4y ago
Use RedMonk instead: https://redmonk.com/sogrady/2022/03/28/language-rankings-1-22/ https://redmonk.com/sogrady/2022/03/28/language-rankings-1-2...
Gordonjcp 4y ago
Maybe Java and C aren't showing up in search results because everyone already knows how to do it.
- nindalf 4y ago
  Don’t confuse search results (the number near the search bar) with Google trends (the number of people searching). Bizarrely, TIOBE uses the first one.
_tom_ 4y ago
The inclusion of Delphi, a basically dead language, always made it obvious that Tiobe was terribly inaccurate. I actually checked indeed for jobs and found around three, nationwide. There are tons of references to Delphi on google and indeed, but they are almost all for other companies named Delphi, like the auto parts maker. Hardly any for the language. Tiobe isn't even trying.
- _tom_ 4y ago
  Redmonk doesn't mention Delphi!
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    Probably listed under "Pascal" which it does feature.
- nindalf 4y ago
  TIOBE was manipulated by the Delphi community - http://delphi.org/2008/10/delphi-keeps-climbing/ http://delphi.org/2008/10/delphi-keeps-climbing/ That’s why it’s so high even today.
  - vintagedave 4y ago
    It's more that TIOBE is hugely controversial in the Delphi community because they won't count Delphi. There have been multiple campaigns to get the language represented "accurately" (for an inaccurate index.) No matter how inaccurate TIOBE is, if it doesn't add its own measurements which are applicable to a specific language, even by comparison with its own data it becomes inaccurate. Not sure what beef the TIOBE people have against Delphi. But what you saw 14 years ago was community action: these days it's moved to community protest... or, like this article, just ignoring TIOBE altogether.
    - _tom_ 4y ago
      What do you mean "won't count Delphi"? It's obviously severely over counting Delphi. A quick check of indeed shows one job with Delphi as a nice to have within 100 miles of San Jose. For python, 11000. Ruby, 559. "Delphi programming" on google, the string that the delphi has been trying to push, gets 127,000 hits on google, "python programming" gets 17,100,000 In computer science, Amazon shows 600 delphi books, with the top book having a sales rank (lower is better) of 1,600,000. Python, too many to count (says over 10000) top sales rank 1000. Ruby, just below Delphi in Tiobe, over 10000, sales rank 800,000 So, basically: no google hits, no book sales and no jobs. How is that number 16?
pornel 4y ago
I wish https://www.openhub.net https://www.openhub.net was still maintained. I like their project stats, and they have overall language comparison by number of contributors: https://www.openhub.net/languages/compare?measure=contributors https://www.openhub.net/languages/compare?measure=contributo... (except the data point for an incomplete month is garbage…)

54 points by nindalf 4y ago

Hey everyone, I noticed several times over the years people (mis)using TIOBE to support whatever their argument was. Each time someone in the thread would explain the various shortcomings of TIOBE and why we shouldn't use it. I decided to write up the issues so we could just point them towards this link instead.

an1sotropy 4y ago
Thanks for writing and sharing this I do not doubt your central claim (that the ranking is derived from merely counting search results, as lampooned by the xkcd example), but I'm curious how are you sure of this, or where is it documented?
- gus_massa 4y ago
  The details of the calculations are in https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programminglanguages_definition/ https://www.tiobe.com/tiobe-index/programminglanguages_defin...
  - an1sotropy 4y ago
    oh my that is daft (thanks)

pjmlp 4y ago

Whatever, management will keep looking into it when doing hiring decisions.

labrador 4y ago

Use RedMonk instead: https://redmonk.com/sogrady/2022/03/28/language-rankings-1-22/ https://redmonk.com/sogrady/2022/03/28/language-rankings-1-2...

Gordonjcp 4y ago

Maybe Java and C aren't showing up in search results because everyone already knows how to do it.

nindalf 4y ago
Don’t confuse search results (the number near the search bar) with Google trends (the number of people searching). Bizarrely, TIOBE uses the first one.

_tom_ 4y ago

The inclusion of Delphi, a basically dead language, always made it obvious that Tiobe was terribly inaccurate. I actually checked indeed for jobs and found around three, nationwide. There are tons of references to Delphi on google and indeed, but they are almost all for other companies named Delphi, like the auto parts maker. Hardly any for the language. Tiobe isn't even trying.

_tom_ 4y ago
Redmonk doesn't mention Delphi!
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  Probably listed under "Pascal" which it does feature.
nindalf 4y ago
TIOBE was manipulated by the Delphi community - http://delphi.org/2008/10/delphi-keeps-climbing/ http://delphi.org/2008/10/delphi-keeps-climbing/ That’s why it’s so high even today.
- vintagedave 4y ago
  It's more that TIOBE is hugely controversial in the Delphi community because they won't count Delphi. There have been multiple campaigns to get the language represented "accurately" (for an inaccurate index.) No matter how inaccurate TIOBE is, if it doesn't add its own measurements which are applicable to a specific language, even by comparison with its own data it becomes inaccurate. Not sure what beef the TIOBE people have against Delphi. But what you saw 14 years ago was community action: these days it's moved to community protest... or, like this article, just ignoring TIOBE altogether.
  - _tom_ 4y ago
    What do you mean "won't count Delphi"? It's obviously severely over counting Delphi. A quick check of indeed shows one job with Delphi as a nice to have within 100 miles of San Jose. For python, 11000. Ruby, 559. "Delphi programming" on google, the string that the delphi has been trying to push, gets 127,000 hits on google, "python programming" gets 17,100,000 In computer science, Amazon shows 600 delphi books, with the top book having a sales rank (lower is better) of 1,600,000. Python, too many to count (says over 10000) top sales rank 1000. Ruby, just below Delphi in Tiobe, over 10000, sales rank 800,000 So, basically: no google hits, no book sales and no jobs. How is that number 16?

pornel 4y ago

I wish https://www.openhub.net https://www.openhub.net was still maintained. I like their project stats, and they have overall language comparison by number of contributors: https://www.openhub.net/languages/compare?measure=contributors https://www.openhub.net/languages/compare?measure=contributo... (except the data point for an incomplete month is garbage…)