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Studies have been done! Here is the latest one, for psilocybin. The mystical experiences are deeply related to therapeutic outcome https://www.frontiersin.org/a

Studies have been done! Here is the latest one, for psilocybin. The mystical experiences are deeply related to therapeutic outcome https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2022.841648/full#h1 https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphar.2022.8416... Here is the first one I am aware of: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3050654/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3050654/. So 14 years of evidence backing up this claim.

joshuajill 4y ago
These mystical experiences are part of the outcome, not an environmental variable. There maybe anecdotal or some other kind of evidence in the sense of what the effect of the supporting environment is on the long term.
- yababa_y 4y ago
  this thread is all about the “trip” ie the mystical experience aspect, that presumably the “plasticity-specific” novel psychedeloids do not occasion because they are not considered part of the physiological outcome but merely a drug experience. that is what the comment I replied was countering: GP claimed more study was needed to say the trip IS the treatment, and I’m saying the research has been done.
TaupeRanger 4y ago
No, none of these studies compares drugs that induce the supposed neuroplasticity effect without the trip to normal hallucinogenics. The claim was that the trip is what makes the drugs work, but we haven't investigated that question yet because the new drugs aren't available.
- yababa_y 4y ago
  There are good salience-based reasons to think the effect is important too. The trip is what makes these drugs work, at least. It seems implausible to me that the trip is merely some threshhold side effect that gets triggered with higher likelihood at the therapeutic doses. At therapeutic doses you’d expect to see a lot more effective non-mystical trips if the trip was an ancillary addon. But, they’ve modified ibogaine in such a fasion: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33299186/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33299186/. So we will see!

joshuajill 4y ago

These mystical experiences are part of the outcome, not an environmental variable. There maybe anecdotal or some other kind of evidence in the sense of what the effect of the supporting environment is on the long term.

yababa_y 4y ago
this thread is all about the “trip” ie the mystical experience aspect, that presumably the “plasticity-specific” novel psychedeloids do not occasion because they are not considered part of the physiological outcome but merely a drug experience. that is what the comment I replied was countering: GP claimed more study was needed to say the trip IS the treatment, and I’m saying the research has been done.

TaupeRanger 4y ago

No, none of these studies compares drugs that induce the supposed neuroplasticity effect without the trip to normal hallucinogenics. The claim was that the trip is what makes the drugs work, but we haven't investigated that question yet because the new drugs aren't available.

yababa_y 4y ago
There are good salience-based reasons to think the effect is important too. The trip is what makes these drugs work, at least. It seems implausible to me that the trip is merely some threshhold side effect that gets triggered with higher likelihood at the therapeutic doses. At therapeutic doses you’d expect to see a lot more effective non-mystical trips if the trip was an ancillary addon. But, they’ve modified ibogaine in such a fasion: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33299186/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33299186/. So we will see!