5 ms·

Well at least suicide is a legitimate personal choice. Murder is not.

chernevik 15y ago
I'm not sure anyone that depressed is entirely capable of "choice". And this is probably not the best moment for ethical theory.
ryan-allen 15y ago
Just like how Depression is a choice and OCD is a choice and Schizophrenia is a choice. Your views on mental health are a bit last century.
- LancerSykera 15y ago
  Suicide isn't a mental illness like depression and OCD and Schizophrenia. While I do agree that this isn't the best time for "ethical theory," I also agree with thomasgerbe in that suicide is a fundamental human right. If one has no desire to continue living, who are you to force them to?
  - gujk 15y ago
    The complication is that most life choices are to some extent reversible in case of mistake. Suicide is not, and therefore is subject to more delicate considetation. Also, for anyone not a hermit, suicide affects other people who may have moral or legal claims of dependency.
  - hellrich 15y ago
    Your ability to make this decision would be impaired if you had a mental illness like depression.
  - ryan-allen 15y ago
    Of course suicide isn't a mental illness. How about you have a look at some facts from the US NIMH [1], how about I summarise some poignant facts: "Research shows that risk factors for suicide include: depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors." So, you're happy to condemn 90% of people who commit suicide to go and 'make that choice' because 'it's their right'? I don't disagree that it's anyone's so-called 'right' to kill themselves, but when 90% of individuals who do so are suffering from mental illness or substance abuse disorders, I think it's far to broad and naive (not to mention downright heartless) to fob it off as a mere 'choice'. Have you known anyone personally who's comitted suicide? I bet that if someone close to you, whom was having a hard time (by stretch of the mind I wouldn't say it's too difficult to imagine in this economy, the loss of a job and a home could be a sufficient trigger for a Major Depressive Episode), decided to kill themselves over a temporary hardship. I doubt you'd merely say "well, it was their choice". I bet you'd rethink your statement and your position. You my friend are very wrong. [1] http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-u...
    - LancerSykera 15y ago
      I never condemned anyone, nor did I say that I support suicide. What I support is the ability to choose freely the course of one's life. I'm curious to know what percentage of the general population suffers from mental and/or substance abuse disorders, in comparison with that 90%. And no, I have not known anyone personally who has killed themselves, at least not to the best of my knowledge. I do know, however, that I myself suffer from a number of "mental disorders" and at one point found myself a good bit suicidal. If someone close to me did kill themselves, of course I wouldn't just say "ah well," that's being unrealistic. I'd be just as affected by it as if they got hit by a bus. My views on death are much different than most, though, so regardless of the manner or intent, it wouldn't affect me anywhere near the same way as you. No position changed, you lose your bet.
    - thomasgerbe 15y ago
      "Have you known anyone personally who's comitted suicide?" Yes. My cousin did by jumping and my sister attempted by overdose. Though I called an ambulance which saved her life. I won't argue that people shouldn't intervene when they can. 'I doubt you'd merely say "well, it was their choice". I bet you'd rethink your statement and your position.' Not really. She's gone through a lot of shit. Meds. Psychiatrist. Friends. Hobbies. Boyfriends. Family. They help but they aren't the answer to everyone. And so if she attempts to commit suicide again and is successful I would be deeply saddened but at least know that she found a peace that she couldn't find in life. Hell, even I experience that same lows. What is the point of having someone suffer through an existence which there is no solution that corrects the problem?
      - lupatus 15y ago
        Both depression/suicide and dietary habits run in families and reoccur over multiple generations. Low serum cholesterol has been shown to be a suicide risk factor. [1] Get you cholesterol tested and try adding more good fats to your diet like oily cold-water fish (think salmon and sardines), butter, eggs (including the yolk!), and coconut milk/oil. You should aim for a low LDL and a high HDL number. Anecdotally, have you ever seen how most teens and soldiers in the US eat? Their diets are low on good fats and high in bad carbohydrates that will send your cholesterol and triglyceride levels out-of-wack. A diet of Red Bull and Doritos will mess you up. [1] http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201103/low-cholesterol-and-suicide http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/...
- pckhoi 15y ago
  Depression is a choice? You surely don't know how Depression work. You don't choose getting into a car accident, in the same way you don't choose Depression. Stuffs happen, not because people "chose" it.
  - mattdeboard 15y ago
    The person you're replying to was being sarcastic. He was not being serious when he said "depression is a choice", etc. He was trying to highlight what he saw as the absurdity of the post to which he was replying.
adrianwaj 15y ago
To me, suicide is murder of self. Who's sicker: the one murdering another, or the one murdering oneself? Also, many murderers kills others first, then themselves. Maybe this Diaspora fellow thought people wanted to kill him, so he thought he'd do it himself to save them the trouble because he'd already let them down once. Who knows.. but that's an ill thought process to have.
- kaiwen1 15y ago
  I may be the odd man out here, but I have to say that I think suicide is a inalienable right. If I own nothing else in this world, the one thing I most certainly do own is my person. If I choose to dispose of myself, that's my right and it should be respected. While I agree that depression and other mental issues are often serious and require serious help, ultimately the decision to stay or go should be mine and should be respected. If I insist on checking out, then law and community ought to allow me to do it. Tangentially, there should be a streamlined euthanasia option to those serving very long prison sentences.
  - adrianwaj 15y ago
    When you take yourself out, you take other people out too psychologically - relatives and close friends. Is that your right, and would you check with them beforehand? And what of the people you might have helped or saved had you lived? If you have the right to your own life, then do you have any obligation to other people's lives? Also, how do you know you own yourself: did you create yourself or did your parents? And who created them? Would you ask your creator if it's okay to suicide, and then would you be open to answers? Lastly, are you sure you die when you die: how do you know the pain won't go on someplace else? From my reading, suicide thought is a transient state but with permanent consequences if acted upon. Also, the best way to fix your mind, is to fix your body, rather than destroy it.
    - kaiwen1 15y ago
      The notions of creator and afterlife are pure fantasy, but if you believe the fantasy then the reasoning you layer on top of it is reasonably sound.
dlikhten 15y ago
Depression is a choice as much as feeling pain is a choice. Some people can cope with it, others cannot. Persistence will break down any coping mechanisms. I remember being depressed with suicidal thoughts, and basically spending the full night telling myself to stfu because I refuse to do it, yet I could not control the thoughts, only the actions taken. It was very difficult, basically the rational part of the brain desperately battling with the emotional part, and that emotional part does not seem to get tired... I cannot imagine people living this way for extended periods of time, would require help from people who care, and reaching out to em. The down side is that depression has a component of hopelessness to it which prevents people from reaching out to others where had they had a well balanced state of mind they would.

I'm not sure anyone that depressed is entirely capable of "choice". And this is probably not the best moment for ethical theory.

ryan-allen 15y ago

Just like how Depression is a choice and OCD is a choice and Schizophrenia is a choice. Your views on mental health are a bit last century.

LancerSykera 15y ago
Suicide isn't a mental illness like depression and OCD and Schizophrenia. While I do agree that this isn't the best time for "ethical theory," I also agree with thomasgerbe in that suicide is a fundamental human right. If one has no desire to continue living, who are you to force them to?
- gujk 15y ago
  The complication is that most life choices are to some extent reversible in case of mistake. Suicide is not, and therefore is subject to more delicate considetation. Also, for anyone not a hermit, suicide affects other people who may have moral or legal claims of dependency.
- hellrich 15y ago
  Your ability to make this decision would be impaired if you had a mental illness like depression.
- ryan-allen 15y ago
  Of course suicide isn't a mental illness. How about you have a look at some facts from the US NIMH [1], how about I summarise some poignant facts: "Research shows that risk factors for suicide include: depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors." So, you're happy to condemn 90% of people who commit suicide to go and 'make that choice' because 'it's their right'? I don't disagree that it's anyone's so-called 'right' to kill themselves, but when 90% of individuals who do so are suffering from mental illness or substance abuse disorders, I think it's far to broad and naive (not to mention downright heartless) to fob it off as a mere 'choice'. Have you known anyone personally who's comitted suicide? I bet that if someone close to you, whom was having a hard time (by stretch of the mind I wouldn't say it's too difficult to imagine in this economy, the loss of a job and a home could be a sufficient trigger for a Major Depressive Episode), decided to kill themselves over a temporary hardship. I doubt you'd merely say "well, it was their choice". I bet you'd rethink your statement and your position. You my friend are very wrong. [1] http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-u...
  - LancerSykera 15y ago
    I never condemned anyone, nor did I say that I support suicide. What I support is the ability to choose freely the course of one's life. I'm curious to know what percentage of the general population suffers from mental and/or substance abuse disorders, in comparison with that 90%. And no, I have not known anyone personally who has killed themselves, at least not to the best of my knowledge. I do know, however, that I myself suffer from a number of "mental disorders" and at one point found myself a good bit suicidal. If someone close to me did kill themselves, of course I wouldn't just say "ah well," that's being unrealistic. I'd be just as affected by it as if they got hit by a bus. My views on death are much different than most, though, so regardless of the manner or intent, it wouldn't affect me anywhere near the same way as you. No position changed, you lose your bet.
  - thomasgerbe 15y ago
    "Have you known anyone personally who's comitted suicide?" Yes. My cousin did by jumping and my sister attempted by overdose. Though I called an ambulance which saved her life. I won't argue that people shouldn't intervene when they can. 'I doubt you'd merely say "well, it was their choice". I bet you'd rethink your statement and your position.' Not really. She's gone through a lot of shit. Meds. Psychiatrist. Friends. Hobbies. Boyfriends. Family. They help but they aren't the answer to everyone. And so if she attempts to commit suicide again and is successful I would be deeply saddened but at least know that she found a peace that she couldn't find in life. Hell, even I experience that same lows. What is the point of having someone suffer through an existence which there is no solution that corrects the problem?
    - lupatus 15y ago
      Both depression/suicide and dietary habits run in families and reoccur over multiple generations. Low serum cholesterol has been shown to be a suicide risk factor. [1] Get you cholesterol tested and try adding more good fats to your diet like oily cold-water fish (think salmon and sardines), butter, eggs (including the yolk!), and coconut milk/oil. You should aim for a low LDL and a high HDL number. Anecdotally, have you ever seen how most teens and soldiers in the US eat? Their diets are low on good fats and high in bad carbohydrates that will send your cholesterol and triglyceride levels out-of-wack. A diet of Red Bull and Doritos will mess you up. [1] http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/201103/low-cholesterol-and-suicide http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-psychiatry/...
pckhoi 15y ago
Depression is a choice? You surely don't know how Depression work. You don't choose getting into a car accident, in the same way you don't choose Depression. Stuffs happen, not because people "chose" it.
- mattdeboard 15y ago
  The person you're replying to was being sarcastic. He was not being serious when he said "depression is a choice", etc. He was trying to highlight what he saw as the absurdity of the post to which he was replying.

adrianwaj 15y ago

To me, suicide is murder of self. Who's sicker: the one murdering another, or the one murdering oneself? Also, many murderers kills others first, then themselves. Maybe this Diaspora fellow thought people wanted to kill him, so he thought he'd do it himself to save them the trouble because he'd already let them down once. Who knows.. but that's an ill thought process to have.

kaiwen1 15y ago
I may be the odd man out here, but I have to say that I think suicide is a inalienable right. If I own nothing else in this world, the one thing I most certainly do own is my person. If I choose to dispose of myself, that's my right and it should be respected. While I agree that depression and other mental issues are often serious and require serious help, ultimately the decision to stay or go should be mine and should be respected. If I insist on checking out, then law and community ought to allow me to do it. Tangentially, there should be a streamlined euthanasia option to those serving very long prison sentences.
- adrianwaj 15y ago
  When you take yourself out, you take other people out too psychologically - relatives and close friends. Is that your right, and would you check with them beforehand? And what of the people you might have helped or saved had you lived? If you have the right to your own life, then do you have any obligation to other people's lives? Also, how do you know you own yourself: did you create yourself or did your parents? And who created them? Would you ask your creator if it's okay to suicide, and then would you be open to answers? Lastly, are you sure you die when you die: how do you know the pain won't go on someplace else? From my reading, suicide thought is a transient state but with permanent consequences if acted upon. Also, the best way to fix your mind, is to fix your body, rather than destroy it.
  - kaiwen1 15y ago
    The notions of creator and afterlife are pure fantasy, but if you believe the fantasy then the reasoning you layer on top of it is reasonably sound.

dlikhten 15y ago

Depression is a choice as much as feeling pain is a choice. Some people can cope with it, others cannot. Persistence will break down any coping mechanisms. I remember being depressed with suicidal thoughts, and basically spending the full night telling myself to stfu because I refuse to do it, yet I could not control the thoughts, only the actions taken. It was very difficult, basically the rational part of the brain desperately battling with the emotional part, and that emotional part does not seem to get tired... I cannot imagine people living this way for extended periods of time, would require help from people who care, and reaching out to em. The down side is that depression has a component of hopelessness to it which prevents people from reaching out to others where had they had a well balanced state of mind they would.