6 ms·

It's not just our community. There are twice as many suicides as homicides in the U.S.[1] Yet, every nightly newscast is sure to cover the murders. How many tal

by robg 15y ago

It's not just our community. There are twice as many suicides as homicides in the U.S.[1] Yet, every nightly newscast is sure to cover the murders. How many talk about the suicides? Worse, suicide is the leading cause of death among college students [2]. It's an epidemic that no one talks about. We've already lost two freshman at MIT this year. [1] http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/09/01/suicide-vs-homicide-by-state-per-100000/ http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/09/01/suicide-vs-homicide-b... [2] http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2011/nov/07/uva-study-suicide-leading-cause-death-us-college-s-ar-1442361/ http://www2.dailyprogress.com/news/2011/nov/07/uva-study-sui...

thomasgerbe 15y ago
Well at least suicide is a legitimate personal choice. Murder is not.
- chernevik 15y ago
  I'm not sure anyone that depressed is entirely capable of "choice". And this is probably not the best moment for ethical theory.
- ryan-allen 15y ago
  Just like how Depression is a choice and OCD is a choice and Schizophrenia is a choice. Your views on mental health are a bit last century.
  - LancerSykera 15y ago
    Suicide isn't a mental illness like depression and OCD and Schizophrenia. While I do agree that this isn't the best time for "ethical theory," I also agree with thomasgerbe in that suicide is a fundamental human right. If one has no desire to continue living, who are you to force them to?
    - gujk 15y ago
      The complication is that most life choices are to some extent reversible in case of mistake. Suicide is not, and therefore is subject to more delicate considetation. Also, for anyone not a hermit, suicide affects other people who may have moral or legal claims of dependency.
    - hellrich 15y ago
      Your ability to make this decision would be impaired if you had a mental illness like depression.
    - ryan-allen 15y ago
      Of course suicide isn't a mental illness. How about you have a look at some facts from the US NIMH [1], how about I summarise some poignant facts: "Research shows that risk factors for suicide include: depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors." So, you're happy to condemn 90% of people who commit suicide to go and 'make that choice' because 'it's their right'? I don't disagree that it's anyone's so-called 'right' to kill themselves, but when 90% of individuals who do so are suffering from mental illness or substance abuse disorders, I think it's far to broad and naive (not to mention downright heartless) to fob it off as a mere 'choice'. Have you known anyone personally who's comitted suicide? I bet that if someone close to you, whom was having a hard time (by stretch of the mind I wouldn't say it's too difficult to imagine in this economy, the loss of a job and a home could be a sufficient trigger for a Major Depressive Episode), decided to kill themselves over a temporary hardship. I doubt you'd merely say "well, it was their choice". I bet you'd rethink your statement and your position. You my friend are very wrong. [1] http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-u...
      - LancerSykera 15y ago
        I never condemned anyone, nor did I say that I support suicide. What I support is the ability to choose freely the course of one's life. I'm curious to know what percentage of the general population suffers from mental and/or substance abuse disorders, in comparison with that 90%. And no, I have not known anyone personally who has killed themselves, at least not to the best of my knowledge. I do know, however, that I myself suffer from a number of "mental disorders" and at one point found myself a good bit suicidal. If someone close to me did kill themselves, of course I wouldn't just say "ah well," that's being unrealistic. I'd be just as affected by it as if they got hit by a bus. My views on death are much different than most, though, so regardless of the manner or intent, it wouldn't affect me anywhere near the same way as you. No position changed, you lose your bet.
  - pckhoi 15y ago
    Depression is a choice? You surely don't know how Depression work. You don't choose getting into a car accident, in the same way you don't choose Depression. Stuffs happen, not because people "chose" it.
    - mattdeboard 15y ago
      The person you're replying to was being sarcastic. He was not being serious when he said "depression is a choice", etc. He was trying to highlight what he saw as the absurdity of the post to which he was replying.
- adrianwaj 15y ago
  To me, suicide is murder of self. Who's sicker: the one murdering another, or the one murdering oneself? Also, many murderers kills others first, then themselves. Maybe this Diaspora fellow thought people wanted to kill him, so he thought he'd do it himself to save them the trouble because he'd already let them down once. Who knows.. but that's an ill thought process to have.
  - kaiwen1 15y ago
    I may be the odd man out here, but I have to say that I think suicide is a inalienable right. If I own nothing else in this world, the one thing I most certainly do own is my person. If I choose to dispose of myself, that's my right and it should be respected. While I agree that depression and other mental issues are often serious and require serious help, ultimately the decision to stay or go should be mine and should be respected. If I insist on checking out, then law and community ought to allow me to do it. Tangentially, there should be a streamlined euthanasia option to those serving very long prison sentences.
    - adrianwaj 15y ago
      When you take yourself out, you take other people out too psychologically - relatives and close friends. Is that your right, and would you check with them beforehand? And what of the people you might have helped or saved had you lived? If you have the right to your own life, then do you have any obligation to other people's lives? Also, how do you know you own yourself: did you create yourself or did your parents? And who created them? Would you ask your creator if it's okay to suicide, and then would you be open to answers? Lastly, are you sure you die when you die: how do you know the pain won't go on someplace else? From my reading, suicide thought is a transient state but with permanent consequences if acted upon. Also, the best way to fix your mind, is to fix your body, rather than destroy it.
      - kaiwen1 15y ago
        The notions of creator and afterlife are pure fantasy, but if you believe the fantasy then the reasoning you layer on top of it is reasonably sound.
- dlikhten 15y ago
  Depression is a choice as much as feeling pain is a choice. Some people can cope with it, others cannot. Persistence will break down any coping mechanisms. I remember being depressed with suicidal thoughts, and basically spending the full night telling myself to stfu because I refuse to do it, yet I could not control the thoughts, only the actions taken. It was very difficult, basically the rational part of the brain desperately battling with the emotional part, and that emotional part does not seem to get tired... I cannot imagine people living this way for extended periods of time, would require help from people who care, and reaching out to em. The down side is that depression has a component of hopelessness to it which prevents people from reaching out to others where had they had a well balanced state of mind they would.
eddiegroves 15y ago
I'm not sure about how it is in USA but a lot of countries have strict rules around the media reporting suicides, so it is deliberate that the topic is under reported. Naturally a lot of people disagree with this and there's constantly heated debate on the future of the media's role.
- neutronicus 15y ago
  They do tend to cluster, and more so when they're in the public eye.
- robryan 15y ago
  Yeah, they are completely avoided in Australia, only time you really hear about one in the media is if it was a public figure. I don't really think this is the right thing to do, it masks that there is any problem so it doesn't get the attention it needs.
  - Joakal 15y ago
    It's against broadcasting rules to publish anything relating to suicide. Especially euthanasia. I gather that exceptions are made for exceptional news.
  - caf 15y ago
    The usual codewords are "Police say there were no suspicious circumstances".
  - socialmediaking 15y ago
    The more you talk about suicide, the more people commit it. It's a terrible conundrum in spreading awareness of how many people actually commit suicide. If there is a high-profile case of suicide reported, there will usually be an uptick in suicide and single car, single-passenger car crashes by people in similar demographics. There is an entire section in Cialdini's book Influence, on the social proof of suicide, and I just recently heard this Freakonomics podcast on the subject http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-suicide-paradox/ http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radi...
rms 15y ago
The US loses about as many troops to suicide as combat. :( http://www.congress.org/news/2011/01/24/more_troops_lost_to_suicide http://www.congress.org/news/2011/01/24/more_troops_lost_to_... I think we'd have a much more harmonious society if we put lithium in the water rather than fluoride. http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/194/5/464.abstract http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/194/5/464.abstract
- radicaldreamer 15y ago
  The suggestion is treating the symptoms rather than the cause though. If, instead of just putting fluoride in the water, there was a serious effort made to reduce the amount of refined sugars in our diets, there would be many more arguably beneficial effects other than just reducing tooth decay. Similarly, instead of thinking about lithiated water, we should really try to treat some of the causes of suicide.
lloeki 15y ago
In France there is four times more deaths from suicide than deaths in a car crash. Yet we have countless cops constantly roaming around, and millions spent on automated speed cameras, in the name of a policy vowed to reduce "unacceptable" life losses, but ignores the fact that 32k people actually die here per year out of sheer helplessness and despair. Somehow I can't help but think that people up there are missing something when they keep throwing money at compressing a number resulting from statistically ineluctable collisions of numerous moving objects (whose seriousness and frequency drops could just as well be explained by combined and massive improvements made to car safety, making the policy look like even more futile), while a little education of people would actually help some of us recognize early and/or late signs of depression on third parties, allowing for professional help to be reached soon enough. Depression is a bit like drowning: it actually looks nothing like you think it does, but one can be trained to recognize it [0] and reach for competent help accordingly. [0]: http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/ http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/

by robg 15y ago

thomasgerbe 15y ago

Well at least suicide is a legitimate personal choice. Murder is not.

chernevik 15y ago
I'm not sure anyone that depressed is entirely capable of "choice". And this is probably not the best moment for ethical theory.
ryan-allen 15y ago
Just like how Depression is a choice and OCD is a choice and Schizophrenia is a choice. Your views on mental health are a bit last century.
- LancerSykera 15y ago
  Suicide isn't a mental illness like depression and OCD and Schizophrenia. While I do agree that this isn't the best time for "ethical theory," I also agree with thomasgerbe in that suicide is a fundamental human right. If one has no desire to continue living, who are you to force them to?
  - gujk 15y ago
    The complication is that most life choices are to some extent reversible in case of mistake. Suicide is not, and therefore is subject to more delicate considetation. Also, for anyone not a hermit, suicide affects other people who may have moral or legal claims of dependency.
  - hellrich 15y ago
    Your ability to make this decision would be impaired if you had a mental illness like depression.
  - ryan-allen 15y ago
    Of course suicide isn't a mental illness. How about you have a look at some facts from the US NIMH [1], how about I summarise some poignant facts: "Research shows that risk factors for suicide include: depression and other mental disorders, or a substance-abuse disorder (often in combination with other mental disorders). More than 90 percent of people who die by suicide have these risk factors." So, you're happy to condemn 90% of people who commit suicide to go and 'make that choice' because 'it's their right'? I don't disagree that it's anyone's so-called 'right' to kill themselves, but when 90% of individuals who do so are suffering from mental illness or substance abuse disorders, I think it's far to broad and naive (not to mention downright heartless) to fob it off as a mere 'choice'. Have you known anyone personally who's comitted suicide? I bet that if someone close to you, whom was having a hard time (by stretch of the mind I wouldn't say it's too difficult to imagine in this economy, the loss of a job and a home could be a sufficient trigger for a Major Depressive Episode), decided to kill themselves over a temporary hardship. I doubt you'd merely say "well, it was their choice". I bet you'd rethink your statement and your position. You my friend are very wrong. [1] http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-us-statistics-and-prevention/index.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/suicide-in-the-u...
    - LancerSykera 15y ago
      I never condemned anyone, nor did I say that I support suicide. What I support is the ability to choose freely the course of one's life. I'm curious to know what percentage of the general population suffers from mental and/or substance abuse disorders, in comparison with that 90%. And no, I have not known anyone personally who has killed themselves, at least not to the best of my knowledge. I do know, however, that I myself suffer from a number of "mental disorders" and at one point found myself a good bit suicidal. If someone close to me did kill themselves, of course I wouldn't just say "ah well," that's being unrealistic. I'd be just as affected by it as if they got hit by a bus. My views on death are much different than most, though, so regardless of the manner or intent, it wouldn't affect me anywhere near the same way as you. No position changed, you lose your bet.
- pckhoi 15y ago
  Depression is a choice? You surely don't know how Depression work. You don't choose getting into a car accident, in the same way you don't choose Depression. Stuffs happen, not because people "chose" it.
  - mattdeboard 15y ago
    The person you're replying to was being sarcastic. He was not being serious when he said "depression is a choice", etc. He was trying to highlight what he saw as the absurdity of the post to which he was replying.
adrianwaj 15y ago
To me, suicide is murder of self. Who's sicker: the one murdering another, or the one murdering oneself? Also, many murderers kills others first, then themselves. Maybe this Diaspora fellow thought people wanted to kill him, so he thought he'd do it himself to save them the trouble because he'd already let them down once. Who knows.. but that's an ill thought process to have.
- kaiwen1 15y ago
  I may be the odd man out here, but I have to say that I think suicide is a inalienable right. If I own nothing else in this world, the one thing I most certainly do own is my person. If I choose to dispose of myself, that's my right and it should be respected. While I agree that depression and other mental issues are often serious and require serious help, ultimately the decision to stay or go should be mine and should be respected. If I insist on checking out, then law and community ought to allow me to do it. Tangentially, there should be a streamlined euthanasia option to those serving very long prison sentences.
  - adrianwaj 15y ago
    When you take yourself out, you take other people out too psychologically - relatives and close friends. Is that your right, and would you check with them beforehand? And what of the people you might have helped or saved had you lived? If you have the right to your own life, then do you have any obligation to other people's lives? Also, how do you know you own yourself: did you create yourself or did your parents? And who created them? Would you ask your creator if it's okay to suicide, and then would you be open to answers? Lastly, are you sure you die when you die: how do you know the pain won't go on someplace else? From my reading, suicide thought is a transient state but with permanent consequences if acted upon. Also, the best way to fix your mind, is to fix your body, rather than destroy it.
    - kaiwen1 15y ago
      The notions of creator and afterlife are pure fantasy, but if you believe the fantasy then the reasoning you layer on top of it is reasonably sound.
dlikhten 15y ago
Depression is a choice as much as feeling pain is a choice. Some people can cope with it, others cannot. Persistence will break down any coping mechanisms. I remember being depressed with suicidal thoughts, and basically spending the full night telling myself to stfu because I refuse to do it, yet I could not control the thoughts, only the actions taken. It was very difficult, basically the rational part of the brain desperately battling with the emotional part, and that emotional part does not seem to get tired... I cannot imagine people living this way for extended periods of time, would require help from people who care, and reaching out to em. The down side is that depression has a component of hopelessness to it which prevents people from reaching out to others where had they had a well balanced state of mind they would.

eddiegroves 15y ago

I'm not sure about how it is in USA but a lot of countries have strict rules around the media reporting suicides, so it is deliberate that the topic is under reported. Naturally a lot of people disagree with this and there's constantly heated debate on the future of the media's role.

neutronicus 15y ago
They do tend to cluster, and more so when they're in the public eye.
robryan 15y ago
Yeah, they are completely avoided in Australia, only time you really hear about one in the media is if it was a public figure. I don't really think this is the right thing to do, it masks that there is any problem so it doesn't get the attention it needs.
- Joakal 15y ago
  It's against broadcasting rules to publish anything relating to suicide. Especially euthanasia. I gather that exceptions are made for exceptional news.
- caf 15y ago
  The usual codewords are "Police say there were no suspicious circumstances".
- socialmediaking 15y ago
  The more you talk about suicide, the more people commit it. It's a terrible conundrum in spreading awareness of how many people actually commit suicide. If there is a high-profile case of suicide reported, there will usually be an uptick in suicide and single car, single-passenger car crashes by people in similar demographics. There is an entire section in Cialdini's book Influence, on the social proof of suicide, and I just recently heard this Freakonomics podcast on the subject http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radio-podcast-the-suicide-paradox/ http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/08/31/new-freakonomics-radi...

rms 15y ago

The US loses about as many troops to suicide as combat. :( http://www.congress.org/news/2011/01/24/more_troops_lost_to_suicide http://www.congress.org/news/2011/01/24/more_troops_lost_to_... I think we'd have a much more harmonious society if we put lithium in the water rather than fluoride. http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/194/5/464.abstract http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/194/5/464.abstract

radicaldreamer 15y ago
The suggestion is treating the symptoms rather than the cause though. If, instead of just putting fluoride in the water, there was a serious effort made to reduce the amount of refined sugars in our diets, there would be many more arguably beneficial effects other than just reducing tooth decay. Similarly, instead of thinking about lithiated water, we should really try to treat some of the causes of suicide.

lloeki 15y ago

In France there is four times more deaths from suicide than deaths in a car crash. Yet we have countless cops constantly roaming around, and millions spent on automated speed cameras, in the name of a policy vowed to reduce "unacceptable" life losses, but ignores the fact that 32k people actually die here per year out of sheer helplessness and despair. Somehow I can't help but think that people up there are missing something when they keep throwing money at compressing a number resulting from statistically ineluctable collisions of numerous moving objects (whose seriousness and frequency drops could just as well be explained by combined and massive improvements made to car safety, making the policy look like even more futile), while a little education of people would actually help some of us recognize early and/or late signs of depression on third parties, allowing for professional help to be reached soon enough. Depression is a bit like drowning: it actually looks nothing like you think it does, but one can be trained to recognize it [0] and reach for competent help accordingly. [0]: http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/ http://mariovittone.com/2010/05/154/