4 ms·

The majority of which folks? People in the world? Certainly. People in history? Even more certainly. People in the United States of America? ...I mean, pr

The majority of which folks? People in the world? Certainly. People in history? Even more certainly. People in the United States of America? ...I mean, probably not actually a majority, but certainly lots of people in the US would have difficulty putting away months' worth of savings without really rigorous amounts of financial discipline. The majority of people who read Hacker News? Uh. No.

diob 4y ago
It's nearly impossible for folks outside our industry (or some comparable industry in terms of pay). Car trouble? Savings gone. Any sort of medical issue? Savings gone. I actually think those folks are more financially disciplined than us, given they somehow make it work despite their low pay.
- aetherson 4y ago
  Median household income in the US is about $67k, and of course median cost of living the US is much lower than in the SF Bay area. It is thoroughly possible to put away enough money to pay for car troubles or many kinds of medical problems without superhuman financial discipline for most households in the US. Now: 1. Is there a substantial minority who genuinely can only really live hand-to-mouth in the US? Yes. 2. Is it obviously much easier for those of us who have tech-job incomes to put away substantial savings than it is for the median family? Also yes. 3. Am I personally some kind of paragon of financial discipline? No. 4. Is it understandable why many people live closer to paycheck-to-paycheck than they could? Yes. But I don't think that hyperbole serves anyone here.
  - diob 4y ago
    I think actual numbers are hard to come by, but I would say it's like a "go do it then" sort of thing. It's easy for well off folks to offer thoughts / advice. Go accept a $67k job (which is actually higher than each of my non tech friends, but whatever), and then go live somewhere on that (renting too!). After a few years, show me how much you've saved. I have zero doubt you'll find it's been eaten up by emergencies, etc. Then get laid off! Hopefully you don't have family to take care of either. I don't even want to think about what happens to your health in that time (fitness, nutrition, etc.). That's why I have major respect for folks who do it. I don't think I'd have the resolve. That's also why I fight for better pay / social safety net for all. They shouldn't have to live like that.
    - aetherson 4y ago
      I think actual numbers aren't at all hard to come by, this is extremely well-studied and easily available to anyone by Googling. But I see that now we're going to go, "Well, the anecdotes of my friends trump actual data."
      - diob 4y ago
        As I said, go do it! Most studies I've seen state that it's hard to know because paycheck to paycheck is such a loaded word. And it's easy to access that the majority of Americans end up in medical debt in their lifetime.
        aetherson 4y ago
        Sure, yes, I'll upend my life for multiple years in order to satisfy the demands of a random HN poster. That seems highly reasonable. Quick question: how many times have you completely changed your entire life because someone on the internet told you that you weren't allowed to have a comment before you did that?
        diob 4y ago
        If you're going to say something like "It is thoroughly possible to put away enough money to pay for car troubles or many kinds of medical problems without superhuman financial discipline for most households in the US." then you should be willing to put your money where your mouth is or prove it in some fashion (run a fake budget based on your household making that amount). I have a low tolerance for making light of other's situations. Why not admit it takes a good amount of financial discipline (if not superhuman)? What does it cost your ego to admit that?
        aetherson 4y ago
        I did say that. You got pissy because I didn't agree with your over the top hyperbole, then you said a lot of ridiculous nonsense, and now that you're ridiculous nonsense has been called you're trying to retroactively pull back on your claims. Financial discipline is hard, it's totally understandable why people don't save as much as would be optimal. I also don't save as much as is optimal. It requires good financial discipline to save money when your budget is limited. But it doesn't require living like a monk or spending every minute of every day pinching pennies to put away $1000 to $3000 or so per year for most Americans, and if you do that you'll be insulated against the kind of minor disasters that happen once a decade or so.
sleepdreamy 4y ago
Actually - over half the country is living pay-check to paycheck. We are lucky to do what we do, don't forget that. I worked a ton of awful jobs before breaking into the industry. A lot of people don't know what it's like to be stepped on in STEM fields but its a constant thing for lower echelons of our society. Cold World
- selimthegrim 4y ago
  You clearly don’t know anyone who went to STEM grad school if you’re saying that

diob 4y ago

It's nearly impossible for folks outside our industry (or some comparable industry in terms of pay). Car trouble? Savings gone. Any sort of medical issue? Savings gone. I actually think those folks are more financially disciplined than us, given they somehow make it work despite their low pay.

aetherson 4y ago
Median household income in the US is about $67k, and of course median cost of living the US is much lower than in the SF Bay area. It is thoroughly possible to put away enough money to pay for car troubles or many kinds of medical problems without superhuman financial discipline for most households in the US. Now: 1. Is there a substantial minority who genuinely can only really live hand-to-mouth in the US? Yes. 2. Is it obviously much easier for those of us who have tech-job incomes to put away substantial savings than it is for the median family? Also yes. 3. Am I personally some kind of paragon of financial discipline? No. 4. Is it understandable why many people live closer to paycheck-to-paycheck than they could? Yes. But I don't think that hyperbole serves anyone here.
- diob 4y ago
  I think actual numbers are hard to come by, but I would say it's like a "go do it then" sort of thing. It's easy for well off folks to offer thoughts / advice. Go accept a $67k job (which is actually higher than each of my non tech friends, but whatever), and then go live somewhere on that (renting too!). After a few years, show me how much you've saved. I have zero doubt you'll find it's been eaten up by emergencies, etc. Then get laid off! Hopefully you don't have family to take care of either. I don't even want to think about what happens to your health in that time (fitness, nutrition, etc.). That's why I have major respect for folks who do it. I don't think I'd have the resolve. That's also why I fight for better pay / social safety net for all. They shouldn't have to live like that.
  - aetherson 4y ago
    I think actual numbers aren't at all hard to come by, this is extremely well-studied and easily available to anyone by Googling. But I see that now we're going to go, "Well, the anecdotes of my friends trump actual data."
    - diob 4y ago
      As I said, go do it! Most studies I've seen state that it's hard to know because paycheck to paycheck is such a loaded word. And it's easy to access that the majority of Americans end up in medical debt in their lifetime.
      - aetherson 4y ago
        Sure, yes, I'll upend my life for multiple years in order to satisfy the demands of a random HN poster. That seems highly reasonable. Quick question: how many times have you completely changed your entire life because someone on the internet told you that you weren't allowed to have a comment before you did that?
        diob 4y ago
        If you're going to say something like "It is thoroughly possible to put away enough money to pay for car troubles or many kinds of medical problems without superhuman financial discipline for most households in the US." then you should be willing to put your money where your mouth is or prove it in some fashion (run a fake budget based on your household making that amount). I have a low tolerance for making light of other's situations. Why not admit it takes a good amount of financial discipline (if not superhuman)? What does it cost your ego to admit that?
        aetherson 4y ago
        I did say that. You got pissy because I didn't agree with your over the top hyperbole, then you said a lot of ridiculous nonsense, and now that you're ridiculous nonsense has been called you're trying to retroactively pull back on your claims. Financial discipline is hard, it's totally understandable why people don't save as much as would be optimal. I also don't save as much as is optimal. It requires good financial discipline to save money when your budget is limited. But it doesn't require living like a monk or spending every minute of every day pinching pennies to put away $1000 to $3000 or so per year for most Americans, and if you do that you'll be insulated against the kind of minor disasters that happen once a decade or so.

sleepdreamy 4y ago

Actually - over half the country is living pay-check to paycheck. We are lucky to do what we do, don't forget that. I worked a ton of awful jobs before breaking into the industry. A lot of people don't know what it's like to be stepped on in STEM fields but its a constant thing for lower echelons of our society. Cold World

selimthegrim 4y ago
You clearly don’t know anyone who went to STEM grad school if you’re saying that