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Capitalism won't allow it. Solving the Climate Change crisis demands questioning Capitalism. Good luck with that.

by zouhair 4y ago

whatshisface 4y ago
The EPA "questions capitalism" every day when it enforces its regulations which protect the commons.
- awnird 4y ago
  This is why the EPA was recently gutted by the Council of Guardians though.
  - whatshisface 4y ago
    Aren't they an Iranian governing body?
    - atlasunshrugged 4y ago
      I think they're referencing the Supreme Court https://www.npr.org/2022/06/30/1103595898/supreme-court-epa-climate-change https://www.npr.org/2022/06/30/1103595898/supreme-court-epa-...
      - whatshisface 4y ago
        Then I can reply by saying that it was not a "gutting," the supreme court was blocking a new regulation on the grounds that it was beyond any that had been enacted before, and in their opinion (using the previous fact as evidence) beyond what Congress had empowered the EPA to do. No presently enforced regulations were overturned.
- anigbrowl 4y ago
  True, but have you noticed how 30-40% of the country gets very angry and irrational about this.
anonuser123456 4y ago
Capitalism already has a solution; effluent taxes and new technology.
- mturmon 4y ago
  It would appear that although Capitalism has a solution, Capital and Capitalists don't like that solution (effluent taxes).
  - rbanffy 4y ago
    The solutions to a number of problems, from climate change, inequality, inflation, housing crises, are all obvious. It's always capitalism that will actively prevent them from being implemented, because it would hurt their profits.
    - engineer_22 4y ago
      As a person inside such a complex and incomprehensible system as the world socioeconomic machine it's far from apparent that anything is obvious, except that humans are incapable of perceiving all of the complexity at once.
      - asdff 4y ago
        How is it not obvious that we shouldn't be burning fossil fuels? Or that we should have mental institutions instead of letting people wander in the street? Easy solutions like this have been obvious for scientists in these fields for decades. You don't have to understand the complexity, just listen to the experts who do in this domain, and they have been hollering the obvious to deaf ears who would prefer a profitable status quo versus a collectively beneficial overhaul of how we do things.
      - anigbrowl 4y ago
        You seem to be arguing that until you understand everything you don't understand anything and mustn't act. This just leads to paralysis. We don't fully understand human biology but that doesn't render our existing medical and pharmaceutical knowledge useless.
JamesBarney 4y ago
Why is communism better at solving country level collective action problems? The only way I can think of is that communism frequently devolves into a dictatorship and if that dictator is more motivated to solve climate change than the democracy he'll do a better job solving it. That and communist countries tend to be really poor which usually results in less carbon use per person.
- giraffe_lady 4y ago
  They didn't actually propose communism as an alternative, it's not likely that there are only and exactly two possible systems of organizing markets so plausibly they had another one in mind. Anyway you don't even need to endorse communism per se to point out that the current setup is pretty fucked and entirely incapable of cleaning up the mess it has created. The conflation of democracy/capitalism and dictatorship/communism is dated and not very useful either. We haven't seen a new communist state rise in a generation or more so it's not clear if that cold war logic holds. Meanwhile we've seen plenty of capitalist dictatorships, and an increasingly authoritarian swerve in a lot of solidly market-based economies so idk. Doesn't seem like a strong link to me.
  - klipt 4y ago
    > Meanwhile we've seen plenty of capitalist dictatorships Because even dictators realized that free markets are very effective. Just like science is very effective. Trying to run a country without free markets is like trying to run a country without science. You can try but you'll be doomed to insignificance and pushed to the margins of the world.
    - giraffe_lady 4y ago
      When I hear stuff like this it just sounds like theological nationalism to me. "For what is a country, without God at its head?" It's completely deranged to think there is exactly one economic structure that can function. Capitalism won, absolutely, I wouldn't dispute that. But taking its victory as inevitable and permanent is such a failure of imagination. Like thinking cats are the only viable mammals because lions dominate their ecosystems. There are other ecosystems! Mice still exist. Carnivores are vulnerable to their ecosystems changing and boooooy are the ecosystems changing.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
gruez 4y ago
>Solving the Climate Change crisis demands questioning Capitalism. Good luck with that. Are non-capitalist economies any better? ie. are there non-capitalist economies out there with fossil fuel reserves that aren't extracting/burning them?
- rbanffy 4y ago
  How many non-capitalist societies are out there? North Korea? Vietnam? Venezuela? You do realize their impact is very small.
  - gruez 4y ago
    How is this relevant? If a small communist country emits the same amount of carbon as similarly sized/developed capitalist economies, that would certainly put a dent in OP's implication that refusing to fix climate change is a capitalist problem.
    - rbanffy 4y ago
      We would need numbers to say that. The countries I mentioned are relatively small and have small energy footprints. The outlier would be Venezuela, but I wouldn't blame them if they needed to burn their own oil to generate energy because they are under economic sanctions.
rhacker 4y ago
Oh my gosh does capitalism allow it. Every time I see the price of a Chinese solar panel drop I buy them (as well as lifepo4 cells). I'm 100% off grid so I need all the panels I can get and they are super cheap compared to a $600 california electric bill.
zouhair 4y ago
Reading all the answers proves my point.

Capitalism won't allow it. Solving the Climate Change crisis demands questioning Capitalism. Good luck with that.

whatshisface 4y ago

The EPA "questions capitalism" every day when it enforces its regulations which protect the commons.

awnird 4y ago
This is why the EPA was recently gutted by the Council of Guardians though.
- whatshisface 4y ago
  Aren't they an Iranian governing body?
  - atlasunshrugged 4y ago
    I think they're referencing the Supreme Court https://www.npr.org/2022/06/30/1103595898/supreme-court-epa-climate-change https://www.npr.org/2022/06/30/1103595898/supreme-court-epa-...
    - whatshisface 4y ago
      Then I can reply by saying that it was not a "gutting," the supreme court was blocking a new regulation on the grounds that it was beyond any that had been enacted before, and in their opinion (using the previous fact as evidence) beyond what Congress had empowered the EPA to do. No presently enforced regulations were overturned.
anigbrowl 4y ago
True, but have you noticed how 30-40% of the country gets very angry and irrational about this.

anonuser123456 4y ago

Capitalism already has a solution; effluent taxes and new technology.

mturmon 4y ago
It would appear that although Capitalism has a solution, Capital and Capitalists don't like that solution (effluent taxes).
- rbanffy 4y ago
  The solutions to a number of problems, from climate change, inequality, inflation, housing crises, are all obvious. It's always capitalism that will actively prevent them from being implemented, because it would hurt their profits.
  - engineer_22 4y ago
    As a person inside such a complex and incomprehensible system as the world socioeconomic machine it's far from apparent that anything is obvious, except that humans are incapable of perceiving all of the complexity at once.
    - asdff 4y ago
      How is it not obvious that we shouldn't be burning fossil fuels? Or that we should have mental institutions instead of letting people wander in the street? Easy solutions like this have been obvious for scientists in these fields for decades. You don't have to understand the complexity, just listen to the experts who do in this domain, and they have been hollering the obvious to deaf ears who would prefer a profitable status quo versus a collectively beneficial overhaul of how we do things.
    - anigbrowl 4y ago
      You seem to be arguing that until you understand everything you don't understand anything and mustn't act. This just leads to paralysis. We don't fully understand human biology but that doesn't render our existing medical and pharmaceutical knowledge useless.

JamesBarney 4y ago

Why is communism better at solving country level collective action problems? The only way I can think of is that communism frequently devolves into a dictatorship and if that dictator is more motivated to solve climate change than the democracy he'll do a better job solving it. That and communist countries tend to be really poor which usually results in less carbon use per person.

giraffe_lady 4y ago
They didn't actually propose communism as an alternative, it's not likely that there are only and exactly two possible systems of organizing markets so plausibly they had another one in mind. Anyway you don't even need to endorse communism per se to point out that the current setup is pretty fucked and entirely incapable of cleaning up the mess it has created. The conflation of democracy/capitalism and dictatorship/communism is dated and not very useful either. We haven't seen a new communist state rise in a generation or more so it's not clear if that cold war logic holds. Meanwhile we've seen plenty of capitalist dictatorships, and an increasingly authoritarian swerve in a lot of solidly market-based economies so idk. Doesn't seem like a strong link to me.
- klipt 4y ago
  > Meanwhile we've seen plenty of capitalist dictatorships Because even dictators realized that free markets are very effective. Just like science is very effective. Trying to run a country without free markets is like trying to run a country without science. You can try but you'll be doomed to insignificance and pushed to the margins of the world.
  - giraffe_lady 4y ago
    When I hear stuff like this it just sounds like theological nationalism to me. "For what is a country, without God at its head?" It's completely deranged to think there is exactly one economic structure that can function. Capitalism won, absolutely, I wouldn't dispute that. But taking its victory as inevitable and permanent is such a failure of imagination. Like thinking cats are the only viable mammals because lions dominate their ecosystems. There are other ecosystems! Mice still exist. Carnivores are vulnerable to their ecosystems changing and boooooy are the ecosystems changing.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

gruez 4y ago

>Solving the Climate Change crisis demands questioning Capitalism. Good luck with that. Are non-capitalist economies any better? ie. are there non-capitalist economies out there with fossil fuel reserves that aren't extracting/burning them?

rbanffy 4y ago
How many non-capitalist societies are out there? North Korea? Vietnam? Venezuela? You do realize their impact is very small.
- gruez 4y ago
  How is this relevant? If a small communist country emits the same amount of carbon as similarly sized/developed capitalist economies, that would certainly put a dent in OP's implication that refusing to fix climate change is a capitalist problem.
  - rbanffy 4y ago
    We would need numbers to say that. The countries I mentioned are relatively small and have small energy footprints. The outlier would be Venezuela, but I wouldn't blame them if they needed to burn their own oil to generate energy because they are under economic sanctions.

rhacker 4y ago

Oh my gosh does capitalism allow it. Every time I see the price of a Chinese solar panel drop I buy them (as well as lifepo4 cells). I'm 100% off grid so I need all the panels I can get and they are super cheap compared to a $600 california electric bill.

zouhair 4y ago

Reading all the answers proves my point.