4 ms·

I really don't understand current progressive ideology. Apart from discrimination against Asians, there is also the whole "Hijab empowers women" nonsense. I c

I really don't understand current progressive ideology. Apart from discrimination against Asians, there is also the whole "Hijab empowers women" nonsense. I come from a part of the world where women have to fight for the right to take off hijab. They are shunned socially for doing so. In worse places, they can be jailed or beaten. Imagine coming from such a place to America, and seeing here women are wearing that symbol of oppression as a fashion statement. It just boggles the mind. Its analogous to if you were an American slave in 1800s, got your freedom and sailed to the UK. And on landing saw blacks in the UK wearing chains as a fashion accessory. It seems so disrespectful towards your struggle.

shkkmo 4y ago
> Its analogous to if you were an American slave in 1800s, got your freedom and sailed to the UK. And on landing saw blacks in the UK wearing chains as a fashion accessory. It seems so disrespectful towards your struggle. I would point out that chains are indeed a popular fashion accessory. I think that telling people what to wear removes power from them. It isn't contradictory to believe that telling people that they must wear something and telling people that they must not wear that thing can BOTH be dis-empowering. So while I think you should absolutely share your experiences and the feelings you get when you see others wearing a hijab, I absolutely do not think you should push for laws that make it illegal to wear one.
- belorn 4y ago
  > I think that telling people what to wear removes power from them. Indeed, it does remove power from them. It is also something which every country, every culture, and every religion has in common. They all put in rules about what people are allowed and not allowed to wear. The support for those are also quite high when people are forced to think about them, but since they are such an omnipresence, it like talking to fish about water. It is a rare event that I find a person who honestly believe that people should have an inalienable-right to decide from themselves what to wear with neither government, culture or religion being able to overrule that decision.
  - shkkmo 4y ago
    The ubiquity and normalization of dress codes doesn't mean that they are fair or just. There is both a long history and plenty of contemporary controversy over very unfair dress codes. When a more powerful group imposes a dress code on a less powerful group, it absolutely behooves us to second guess ourselves. > people should have an inalienable-right to decide from themselves what to wear It seems pretty evident that dress and style is a form of self expression is is thus part of our right to free speech, and sometimes also protected by freedom of religion. Both of those "inalienable rights" are subject to abrogation in specific contexts and so is the right to dress how you like, but that doesn't mean it isn't a fundamental human right.
    - belorn 4y ago
      What is a fair or unfair dress code is determine by culture, religion and governments, which simply create a circle. The culture, religion and political majority determine what dress code is used, and the same one determine if it is fair. Unless the law, culture or religion is lagging behind political majority it will always be a minority that will view a dress code as being unfair. Similar is the specific contexts which such rules may be broken. Nudists are generally only permitted in very narrow defined and small nudist zones, like say a specific beach behind a hill and behind a forest on the outskirts of a city. If the same would be applied to Hijab so that it would only be allowed in small and special Hijab zones located out of sight of everyone in the furthest located place, would it feel fair or unfair? We have situation like, should a male buss driver be allowed to wear shorts, or is it fair that the company dress code say that men should were suits and women skirts regardless of hot it is? I know a person who had to quite his job because wearing socks hurt his feet so much and the dress code strictly required socks. Fair? Unfair? Some people has been fired because they refused to remove jewelry where the dress code forbid it. Those jewelry was religious in nature and such the wearer felt they deserved an exception. Fair or unfair? The list goes on and on. Depending on a person cultural, religious and political views people will think some of those are fair and others not. Very few find all of them unfair and want to give people the right to determine that themselves, which is why finding such person is such a rare event for me. Personally I think people should have the right to wear or not wear what ever they want as long it doesn't cause physical harm to an other person, but that is me.
- lp0_on_fire 4y ago
  > I would point out that chains are indeed a popular fashion accessory. The chains of a chattel slave are popular fashion accessory where now?
golemotron 4y ago
In the culture wars, it's all about positioning yourself as being of higher moral standing. If you position yourself as being for the downtrodden, you get higher social status. For historical reasons, this can't be done with poverty any more in the US so the playing field is selected race and gender groups.
gamblor956 4y ago
You don't understand it because your understanding of it is wrong. The point isn't that the "hijab empowers women." The point is that a woman should be able to choose for herself whether to wear the hijab or not. Autonomy, and all that. Telling a Muslim woman she can't wear a hijab is just as oppressive as telling one she must wear it.
- TheMagicHorsey 4y ago
  Nobody is talking about a ban. I'm talking about there being no backlash in America against hijab in liberal circles. A hijab and a confederate flag are equally symbols of oppression but only one is frowned upon in liberal circles. Why?
  - gamblor956 4y ago
    Again, you're just arguing at strawmen of your own creation. A hijab is a religious garment. The confederate flag is a symbol of treason and slavery. Liberals leave it up to the individual to practice their own faith as they wish, so it's not frowned upon any more than a rosary is.
    - cudgy 4y ago
      So, if the effective slavery of women is part of a religion, it is ok?
      - gamblor956 4y ago
        A hijab is not "effective slavery" of women. It is a religious garment that a woman can choose to wear, in America at least. Unless you're also now telling the Amish and Orthodox Jewish communities how they have to dress? While we're at it, Mormons also have religious dress codes for women. And Hindus.
akomtu 4y ago
These leftists (there's nothing progressive in them) are the good old priesthood. They invent dogmas that mock logic to control the crowd, and they do it by fear, but they are keenly aware of the real power - the royalty - so when the roylaty wants something that contradicts the existing dogmas, the priests swiftly invent a new dogma.
michtzik 4y ago
> Its analogous to if you were an American slave in 1800s, got your freedom and sailed to the UK. And on landing saw blacks in the UK wearing chains as a fashion accessory. https://genius.com/8720933 https://genius.com/8720933 > Most black men couldn't balance a checkbook / But buy a new car, talkin' 'bout, "How my neck look?" / Well, it all looks great / Four hundred years later, we buyin' our own chains

shkkmo 4y ago

> Its analogous to if you were an American slave in 1800s, got your freedom and sailed to the UK. And on landing saw blacks in the UK wearing chains as a fashion accessory. It seems so disrespectful towards your struggle. I would point out that chains are indeed a popular fashion accessory. I think that telling people what to wear removes power from them. It isn't contradictory to believe that telling people that they must wear something and telling people that they must not wear that thing can BOTH be dis-empowering. So while I think you should absolutely share your experiences and the feelings you get when you see others wearing a hijab, I absolutely do not think you should push for laws that make it illegal to wear one.

belorn 4y ago
> I think that telling people what to wear removes power from them. Indeed, it does remove power from them. It is also something which every country, every culture, and every religion has in common. They all put in rules about what people are allowed and not allowed to wear. The support for those are also quite high when people are forced to think about them, but since they are such an omnipresence, it like talking to fish about water. It is a rare event that I find a person who honestly believe that people should have an inalienable-right to decide from themselves what to wear with neither government, culture or religion being able to overrule that decision.
- shkkmo 4y ago
  The ubiquity and normalization of dress codes doesn't mean that they are fair or just. There is both a long history and plenty of contemporary controversy over very unfair dress codes. When a more powerful group imposes a dress code on a less powerful group, it absolutely behooves us to second guess ourselves. > people should have an inalienable-right to decide from themselves what to wear It seems pretty evident that dress and style is a form of self expression is is thus part of our right to free speech, and sometimes also protected by freedom of religion. Both of those "inalienable rights" are subject to abrogation in specific contexts and so is the right to dress how you like, but that doesn't mean it isn't a fundamental human right.
  - belorn 4y ago
    What is a fair or unfair dress code is determine by culture, religion and governments, which simply create a circle. The culture, religion and political majority determine what dress code is used, and the same one determine if it is fair. Unless the law, culture or religion is lagging behind political majority it will always be a minority that will view a dress code as being unfair. Similar is the specific contexts which such rules may be broken. Nudists are generally only permitted in very narrow defined and small nudist zones, like say a specific beach behind a hill and behind a forest on the outskirts of a city. If the same would be applied to Hijab so that it would only be allowed in small and special Hijab zones located out of sight of everyone in the furthest located place, would it feel fair or unfair? We have situation like, should a male buss driver be allowed to wear shorts, or is it fair that the company dress code say that men should were suits and women skirts regardless of hot it is? I know a person who had to quite his job because wearing socks hurt his feet so much and the dress code strictly required socks. Fair? Unfair? Some people has been fired because they refused to remove jewelry where the dress code forbid it. Those jewelry was religious in nature and such the wearer felt they deserved an exception. Fair or unfair? The list goes on and on. Depending on a person cultural, religious and political views people will think some of those are fair and others not. Very few find all of them unfair and want to give people the right to determine that themselves, which is why finding such person is such a rare event for me. Personally I think people should have the right to wear or not wear what ever they want as long it doesn't cause physical harm to an other person, but that is me.
lp0_on_fire 4y ago
> I would point out that chains are indeed a popular fashion accessory. The chains of a chattel slave are popular fashion accessory where now?

golemotron 4y ago

In the culture wars, it's all about positioning yourself as being of higher moral standing. If you position yourself as being for the downtrodden, you get higher social status. For historical reasons, this can't be done with poverty any more in the US so the playing field is selected race and gender groups.

gamblor956 4y ago

You don't understand it because your understanding of it is wrong. The point isn't that the "hijab empowers women." The point is that a woman should be able to choose for herself whether to wear the hijab or not. Autonomy, and all that. Telling a Muslim woman she can't wear a hijab is just as oppressive as telling one she must wear it.

TheMagicHorsey 4y ago
Nobody is talking about a ban. I'm talking about there being no backlash in America against hijab in liberal circles. A hijab and a confederate flag are equally symbols of oppression but only one is frowned upon in liberal circles. Why?
- gamblor956 4y ago
  Again, you're just arguing at strawmen of your own creation. A hijab is a religious garment. The confederate flag is a symbol of treason and slavery. Liberals leave it up to the individual to practice their own faith as they wish, so it's not frowned upon any more than a rosary is.
  - cudgy 4y ago
    So, if the effective slavery of women is part of a religion, it is ok?
    - gamblor956 4y ago
      A hijab is not "effective slavery" of women. It is a religious garment that a woman can choose to wear, in America at least. Unless you're also now telling the Amish and Orthodox Jewish communities how they have to dress? While we're at it, Mormons also have religious dress codes for women. And Hindus.

akomtu 4y ago

These leftists (there's nothing progressive in them) are the good old priesthood. They invent dogmas that mock logic to control the crowd, and they do it by fear, but they are keenly aware of the real power - the royalty - so when the roylaty wants something that contradicts the existing dogmas, the priests swiftly invent a new dogma.

michtzik 4y ago

> Its analogous to if you were an American slave in 1800s, got your freedom and sailed to the UK. And on landing saw blacks in the UK wearing chains as a fashion accessory. https://genius.com/8720933 https://genius.com/8720933 > Most black men couldn't balance a checkbook / But buy a new car, talkin' 'bout, "How my neck look?" / Well, it all looks great / Four hundred years later, we buyin' our own chains