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A few months ago, I was looking to buy a new ford vehicle. Not saying the name - I am still too annoyed to advertise for them. A lot of people wanted this, so

A few months ago, I was looking to buy a new ford vehicle. Not saying the name - I am still too annoyed to advertise for them. A lot of people wanted this, so dealers in my local area were marking up and adding dealer fees WAAAAAAAY in excess of MSRP. We aren't talking 2-3k we are talking 10-20k. When I pushed back, the dealer was happy for me to walk as there was a line of people wanting it after me. My wife and I have only owned ford vehicles. Bought my first Toyota. I won't be back.

hajdjvkrj 4y ago
toyota is pretty well known for dealer markups as well
- bombcar 4y ago
  At least here the dealers appear to be "selling at sticker" but I assume that if you slip the right person enough "add-ons" you find that you're higher on the list of vehicles arriving ...
BirAdam 4y ago
Same here, but I just decided not to buy a new vehicle. The dealership wanted 20k over NEW MSRP on a USED model.
- raxxorraxor 4y ago
  I think dealers need to be careful since companies like Tesla demonstrate that you might be able to cut them out completely. Personally I buy used cars because I drive once a week and if you have friends with car repair skills maintenance is pretty cheap. That will soon change though and may never come back as cars will be locked down more (without actually having gained any significant functions as self driving is out of reach). Efficiency got better though. A new car today might indeed use 30% less gasoline compared to a 15 year old car. Don't know how diesel compares but that seems to be the best argument for a new car.
  - pwinnski 4y ago
    There are legal issues with cutting dealers out, it's protectionism all the way down. Tesla gets away with it (sort of) by having zero dealers anywhere. Even so, they can't currently sell cars within Texas, despite having moved their HQ here. Texas is not alone[0]. Most states require automakers to use dealerships! Tesla operates stores within Texas, but only to show off the cars. If you express interest, they direct you to the website, as they are not allowed to sell to you in person. Dealers feel pretty comfortable with their legal protections right now. They probably shouldn't, because things could change quickly, but they won't change easily. 0. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/03/where-tesla-can-sell-cars-map/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/03/where-tesla-can-sell-ca...
    - mywittyname 4y ago
      If it gets bad enough, manufactures can spin up new brands without legacy dealership cruft. Even without that, a number of dealerships have consolidated into mega conglomerates. Manufactures could probably band together to acquire these at arms length and ensure they get the first, and largest allotment of special vehicles. But let's not pretend manufactures are innocent in all of this. For years, they tacitly encouraged shitty behavior from dealerships. They pushed margins so low that dealerships could only survive by hitting lofty sales targets and selling overpriced addons. The reason dealerships are okay with buying up new cars and selling them immediately as new is because this was the standard MO necessary for years to hit quarterly targets. If the dealership was two vehicles short of their target, and no customers were coming in, it looks like a few managers were buying some cars to trade back in next week. Customers don't blink at buying a "used" new car because dealerships just call them "demo" cars or something.
      - pwinnski 4y ago
        > Manufactures could probably band together to acquire these at arms length and ensure they get the first, and largest allotment of special vehicles. To my rough recollection, that is also not allowed by law. The US government once acted to prevent single entities from controlling all pieces of a pipeline, a pattern or doctrine that got lost in the 1970s. Many laws from that era remain. And yes, for sure, I'm not saying manufacturers are blameless here! If not for the laws preventing them from owning dealerships, I'm sure they would have already done so.
- FireBeyond 4y ago
  That may be part of a new thing. Fearful of sanctions from manufacturers, many dealerships have created shell companies, sold their supplies to the shell company for MSRP, who has immediately sold it back to the dealership for MSRP, and now sells it as a used vehicle with <100mi on it, and $20K above the new MSRP. Works doubly well for the dealership as they continue to get new cars for behaving.
bonestamp2 4y ago
I'm assuming it was a Bronco or a Mach-e? Both of those seem to be in high demand right now and the prices are going nuts. I have so much respect for the dealers who are NOT selling above MSRP. They could be making a lot of extra money right now and they're choosing the right thing over more profit.
- bruceb 4y ago
  How is it the "right thing"? Its car $60k+, not food during a disaster. When there is a glut of cars are buyers going to say hey I will pay you MSRP and not the discount you are giving because you need to move the cars off the lot? Buyers have a choice not to buy a Mach-e.
- briffle 4y ago
  I have a relative that had the exact same problem with a Kia Telluride. They had to pay way over MSRP, plus a 'fee' for beeing on the waiting list to get one.
CobaltFire 4y ago
Ironic as during normal times Toyota dealers are among the worst for dealer markups. Look at markup history for Tacomas and 4Runners. During the supply chain issues they've been the worst in SoCal. We wanted to buy a Sienna earlier this year and they wanted $15k over sticker and a non-refundable deposit with a 90+ day wait. This is a dealer problem, and Ford is the only traditional auto manufacturer pushing back.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  Toyota can get away with it because they're the Kitchenaid or Levis Jeans of cars. They spent time building up a very reputable brand image and now premium consumers have it in their mind that they're "good" and any action they take can then be justified post-hoc.
- bluedino 4y ago
  We just bought a Honda because we could get it at MSRP. The Toyota waiting list had like 20 people on it, cost $1500 to get on, we'd have to buy fabric protection and ceramic coating for the dealer when we got the car...and we probably wouldn't even have gotten the car until early next year (this was in June)
spicymaki 4y ago
I never had a Ford, but I do like Toyotas. Sadly Toyota dealers have been marking up prices quite a bit for a while. There was a HN post recently that showed RAV 4 Primes in CA at 70k. I think this might be happening everywhere.
sndlbn 4y ago
Hey, so I did the same. I was asked to add 9k to the 24k MSRP car. So I said no. I chose Toyota as I got the MSRP price. I would love to return to Ford but will wait until Ford sorts out the issue.
jokowueu 4y ago
How does Toyota solve this issue ? Don't they sell through dealerships as well ?
- zdragnar 4y ago
  Toyota dealership near me proudly advertised that they didn't mark up vehicles beyond MSRP. They also wouldn't have a new vehicle available for 2 months as their cars were sold that far in advance.
  - gambiting 4y ago
    >>They also wouldn't have a new vehicle available for 2 months as their cars were sold that far in advance Is that.....meant to be long? Everywhere I ask, every dealer every brand, every model, if you want a brand new vehicle from factory, the wait time is at least 6 months, usually 12+ months. If you want a brand new Kia EV6, the earliest delivery time is Q1 2024 - the order book is closed for 2023 already.
    - zdragnar 4y ago
      It's a tiny metro area (entire metro consists of roughly 3 million people) over approximately 6,000 square miles. The dealerships I spoke with get small monthly deliveries, and only the unpopular trims are available at the 2 month mark. I suspect being in an area that makes extensive use of salt on the roads in winter might not help, as new cars will depreciate that much faster- perhaps they simply aren't in as much demand as used cars. Used retail prices right now are nearly the same as MSRP if it has less than 50k miles. Of course, if you want one of the trendy models, wait time is almost certainly much longer.
- throwaway0a5e 4y ago
  a) A combination of high MSRPs and a dearth of manufacturer rebates and sub-prime financing that ensures that the only people who come in the door are the ones who can/will pay. b) They don't. Plenty of Toyota dealers are marking things up to the moon.
wccrawford 4y ago
My family was really into Chevy, but the dealership here was garbage. My wife had a Mazda and their dealership was amazing, so we've had Mazdas ever since. There are some dealerships in town that would probably be bad, but I doubt any are as bad as that particular Chevy dealer. Our Mazda cars have been great, too, of course, or it wouldn't matter how good the dealer was.
belthesar 4y ago
I think this story is telling of the damage Ford is trying to mitigate. The choice of dealerships to take advantage of demand to raise prices for short term gain is causing long term damage to brand loyalty and awareness. I had a similar experience when Ford chose to discontinue all their sedans. I personally like an intermediate sedan for my daily driver - it's small enough to be fuel efficient and easy to drive, but large enough to hold 5 people and go touring in (not to mention fit me, a larger individual). When Ford stopped selling a sedan, I no longer became a customer interested in their products, even after having two previous Ford vehicles that I've been quite happy to own. The difference between my experience and the experience above here, however, is that the car manufacturer receives the brunt of the hate, but holds very little responsibility for the actions that hate. Dealerships have been the villain in the car buying story ever since I could remember. They were the casino, and the house always wins. When you've played the villain for so long, I believe it's only natural for you to decide to become the best villain you can be.
gamblor956 4y ago
The only Ford vehicles with that sort of markup were the Mustang EV and the 150 Lightning. The Mustang is a great car if you're looking to have fun, but it's not very practical. The Lightning is amazing. I've gotten to ride in my neighbor's Lightning a few times, and I would buy it in a heartbeat if it weren't sold out through the end of next year. My neighbor did not pay a dealer markup on the vehicle (in SoCal). I don't know if that's because the dealer was playing nice, or because Ford threatened to withhold Lightnings from dealers that added markups and they didn't want to lose out on future shipments.
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  Broncos and Mavericks are also being massively marked up, not just the electric cars.

hajdjvkrj 4y ago

toyota is pretty well known for dealer markups as well

bombcar 4y ago
At least here the dealers appear to be "selling at sticker" but I assume that if you slip the right person enough "add-ons" you find that you're higher on the list of vehicles arriving ...

BirAdam 4y ago

Same here, but I just decided not to buy a new vehicle. The dealership wanted 20k over NEW MSRP on a USED model.

raxxorraxor 4y ago
I think dealers need to be careful since companies like Tesla demonstrate that you might be able to cut them out completely. Personally I buy used cars because I drive once a week and if you have friends with car repair skills maintenance is pretty cheap. That will soon change though and may never come back as cars will be locked down more (without actually having gained any significant functions as self driving is out of reach). Efficiency got better though. A new car today might indeed use 30% less gasoline compared to a 15 year old car. Don't know how diesel compares but that seems to be the best argument for a new car.
- pwinnski 4y ago
  There are legal issues with cutting dealers out, it's protectionism all the way down. Tesla gets away with it (sort of) by having zero dealers anywhere. Even so, they can't currently sell cars within Texas, despite having moved their HQ here. Texas is not alone[0]. Most states require automakers to use dealerships! Tesla operates stores within Texas, but only to show off the cars. If you express interest, they direct you to the website, as they are not allowed to sell to you in person. Dealers feel pretty comfortable with their legal protections right now. They probably shouldn't, because things could change quickly, but they won't change easily. 0. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/03/where-tesla-can-sell-cars-map/ https://cleantechnica.com/2019/08/03/where-tesla-can-sell-ca...
  - mywittyname 4y ago
    If it gets bad enough, manufactures can spin up new brands without legacy dealership cruft. Even without that, a number of dealerships have consolidated into mega conglomerates. Manufactures could probably band together to acquire these at arms length and ensure they get the first, and largest allotment of special vehicles. But let's not pretend manufactures are innocent in all of this. For years, they tacitly encouraged shitty behavior from dealerships. They pushed margins so low that dealerships could only survive by hitting lofty sales targets and selling overpriced addons. The reason dealerships are okay with buying up new cars and selling them immediately as new is because this was the standard MO necessary for years to hit quarterly targets. If the dealership was two vehicles short of their target, and no customers were coming in, it looks like a few managers were buying some cars to trade back in next week. Customers don't blink at buying a "used" new car because dealerships just call them "demo" cars or something.
    - pwinnski 4y ago
      > Manufactures could probably band together to acquire these at arms length and ensure they get the first, and largest allotment of special vehicles. To my rough recollection, that is also not allowed by law. The US government once acted to prevent single entities from controlling all pieces of a pipeline, a pattern or doctrine that got lost in the 1970s. Many laws from that era remain. And yes, for sure, I'm not saying manufacturers are blameless here! If not for the laws preventing them from owning dealerships, I'm sure they would have already done so.
FireBeyond 4y ago
That may be part of a new thing. Fearful of sanctions from manufacturers, many dealerships have created shell companies, sold their supplies to the shell company for MSRP, who has immediately sold it back to the dealership for MSRP, and now sells it as a used vehicle with <100mi on it, and $20K above the new MSRP. Works doubly well for the dealership as they continue to get new cars for behaving.

bonestamp2 4y ago

I'm assuming it was a Bronco or a Mach-e? Both of those seem to be in high demand right now and the prices are going nuts. I have so much respect for the dealers who are NOT selling above MSRP. They could be making a lot of extra money right now and they're choosing the right thing over more profit.

bruceb 4y ago
How is it the "right thing"? Its car $60k+, not food during a disaster. When there is a glut of cars are buyers going to say hey I will pay you MSRP and not the discount you are giving because you need to move the cars off the lot? Buyers have a choice not to buy a Mach-e.
briffle 4y ago
I have a relative that had the exact same problem with a Kia Telluride. They had to pay way over MSRP, plus a 'fee' for beeing on the waiting list to get one.

CobaltFire 4y ago

Ironic as during normal times Toyota dealers are among the worst for dealer markups. Look at markup history for Tacomas and 4Runners. During the supply chain issues they've been the worst in SoCal. We wanted to buy a Sienna earlier this year and they wanted $15k over sticker and a non-refundable deposit with a 90+ day wait. This is a dealer problem, and Ford is the only traditional auto manufacturer pushing back.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago
Toyota can get away with it because they're the Kitchenaid or Levis Jeans of cars. They spent time building up a very reputable brand image and now premium consumers have it in their mind that they're "good" and any action they take can then be justified post-hoc.
bluedino 4y ago
We just bought a Honda because we could get it at MSRP. The Toyota waiting list had like 20 people on it, cost $1500 to get on, we'd have to buy fabric protection and ceramic coating for the dealer when we got the car...and we probably wouldn't even have gotten the car until early next year (this was in June)

spicymaki 4y ago

I never had a Ford, but I do like Toyotas. Sadly Toyota dealers have been marking up prices quite a bit for a while. There was a HN post recently that showed RAV 4 Primes in CA at 70k. I think this might be happening everywhere.

sndlbn 4y ago

Hey, so I did the same. I was asked to add 9k to the 24k MSRP car. So I said no. I chose Toyota as I got the MSRP price. I would love to return to Ford but will wait until Ford sorts out the issue.

jokowueu 4y ago

How does Toyota solve this issue ? Don't they sell through dealerships as well ?

zdragnar 4y ago
Toyota dealership near me proudly advertised that they didn't mark up vehicles beyond MSRP. They also wouldn't have a new vehicle available for 2 months as their cars were sold that far in advance.
- gambiting 4y ago
  >>They also wouldn't have a new vehicle available for 2 months as their cars were sold that far in advance Is that.....meant to be long? Everywhere I ask, every dealer every brand, every model, if you want a brand new vehicle from factory, the wait time is at least 6 months, usually 12+ months. If you want a brand new Kia EV6, the earliest delivery time is Q1 2024 - the order book is closed for 2023 already.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    It's a tiny metro area (entire metro consists of roughly 3 million people) over approximately 6,000 square miles. The dealerships I spoke with get small monthly deliveries, and only the unpopular trims are available at the 2 month mark. I suspect being in an area that makes extensive use of salt on the roads in winter might not help, as new cars will depreciate that much faster- perhaps they simply aren't in as much demand as used cars. Used retail prices right now are nearly the same as MSRP if it has less than 50k miles. Of course, if you want one of the trendy models, wait time is almost certainly much longer.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
a) A combination of high MSRPs and a dearth of manufacturer rebates and sub-prime financing that ensures that the only people who come in the door are the ones who can/will pay. b) They don't. Plenty of Toyota dealers are marking things up to the moon.

wccrawford 4y ago

My family was really into Chevy, but the dealership here was garbage. My wife had a Mazda and their dealership was amazing, so we've had Mazdas ever since. There are some dealerships in town that would probably be bad, but I doubt any are as bad as that particular Chevy dealer. Our Mazda cars have been great, too, of course, or it wouldn't matter how good the dealer was.

belthesar 4y ago

I think this story is telling of the damage Ford is trying to mitigate. The choice of dealerships to take advantage of demand to raise prices for short term gain is causing long term damage to brand loyalty and awareness. I had a similar experience when Ford chose to discontinue all their sedans. I personally like an intermediate sedan for my daily driver - it's small enough to be fuel efficient and easy to drive, but large enough to hold 5 people and go touring in (not to mention fit me, a larger individual). When Ford stopped selling a sedan, I no longer became a customer interested in their products, even after having two previous Ford vehicles that I've been quite happy to own. The difference between my experience and the experience above here, however, is that the car manufacturer receives the brunt of the hate, but holds very little responsibility for the actions that hate. Dealerships have been the villain in the car buying story ever since I could remember. They were the casino, and the house always wins. When you've played the villain for so long, I believe it's only natural for you to decide to become the best villain you can be.

gamblor956 4y ago

The only Ford vehicles with that sort of markup were the Mustang EV and the 150 Lightning. The Mustang is a great car if you're looking to have fun, but it's not very practical. The Lightning is amazing. I've gotten to ride in my neighbor's Lightning a few times, and I would buy it in a heartbeat if it weren't sold out through the end of next year. My neighbor did not pay a dealer markup on the vehicle (in SoCal). I don't know if that's because the dealer was playing nice, or because Ford threatened to withhold Lightnings from dealers that added markups and they didn't want to lose out on future shipments.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
Broncos and Mavericks are also being massively marked up, not just the electric cars.