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You stab someone with a screwdriver, paid with a credit card and credit card service company is held responsible. This is the end of the world as we know it.

by tyiz 4y ago

Aachen 4y ago
That is what it sounds like honestly, as if the payment provider has to go check on available security footage what the screwdriver was used for (in this case, they could have checked on the site and, potentially, by having their employees look at a lot of porn, found an instance of child porn somewhere) and then discontinue providing services to the store until they put background checks in place for customers. A lot more reasonable for porn than for screwdrivers, but to sue a party so far removed from the person who actually uploaded that child porn and is ultimately the main responsible party... then you can also sue the hosting company, the company that opened up the street to put in cables to transmit the child porn (they could have checked what it's used for), the ISP that was used to access it, et cetera This is really just suing everyone to see what sticks, no way that this goes anywhere... right?
- Miner49er 4y ago
  I can see there being a bar where it is reasonable that Visa should have known it was happening. For the screwdriver example, I think everyone would agree it would be unreasonable for Visa to know what was going to happen. For this case, it is kind of common sense that at some point child porn or at least revenge porn would be uploaded to PH, and they are a very large company that works with Visa, so maybe Visa should have known it was possible? I guess that goes with every company that does business with PH. There has to be a line somewhere where a company starts being responsible for knowingly doing business with an entity doing illegal things, this lawsuit it maybe just testing that line.
  - zmgsabst 4y ago
    We know at least some screwdrivers (and other hand tools) are used for murder, based on records of murder by the government. Visa should have known the risk of screwdrivers without background checks! Why didn’t they cut off Home Depot?
  - bennyp101 4y ago
    That kinda stuff I guess gets uploaded to any sort of “social media” site, so Facebook, twitter, etc, where do they draw the line of just not accepting payments?
    - martin_a 4y ago
      There have been very unfortunate pictures of me on Facebook, I think Visa should stop taking payments for them. /s Nah, I think you got the point. With social media and user-generated content at whole, it's simply not possible to not have some foul eggs in the basket.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    It seems reasonable to assume that somewhere out there screwdrivers are being miss used. >There has to be a line somewhere where a company starts being responsible for knowingly doing business with an entity doing illegal things Isn't that the point of business licensing? It is weird for the state, courts, and law enforcement to permit a company to operate legally, but hold their business partners to a higher standard. Visa didn't have any inside info on pornhub that the state and law enforcement didn't have inside
  - martin_a 4y ago
    > revenge porn would be uploaded to PH Does this look different than other porn? I mean, how is PH supposed to know it's revenge porn, when it's being uploaded? I don't think you can effectively find and filter that. You can only react to complaints afterwards.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
enos_feedler 4y ago
The difference is the store you bought the screw driver from isn’t knowing and willfully enabling heinous acts on an active and ongoing basis. Nobody would place anyone responsible in this case. Visa is fully aware of PH and what they are doing and choosing to continue enabling the business.
- Aspos 4y ago
  And so does electric utility serving PH. So does a catering company serving them luch, so does a real estate company providing them with office space. Why single out payment processor?
  - erichocean 4y ago
    > And so does electric utility serving PH. Electric utilities, by law, must provide service to everyone (who has the ability to pay).
  - jasonlotito 4y ago
    Money. Money goes to PH via Visa. This allows them to operate. If the catering company, real estate company, or electric utility is serving as a front to process payments for PH, then they can be sued as well. Why do you think Visa should be left off the hook if it conspired with PH to profit from CP?
    - kmlx 4y ago
      > Why do you think Visa should be left off the hook if it conspired with PH to profit from CP? who did what now?
    - Pigalowda 4y ago
      This comment looks like an example of reaction formation.
  - s1artibartfast 4y ago
    More importantly if we follow that line on reasoning, so does the state that allows PH to operate and should be the actual arbiter of legally operating company. The question should be quite simple. Was Ph licensed to operate legally and does Visa have any inside information that isn't available to the state and legislators.
theotherfunk 4y ago
jasonlotito 4y ago
> You stab someone with a screwdriver, paid with a credit card and credit card service company is held responsible. So, while I think your stance is wrong for many reasons, this is misrepresenting what is happening and it a flat out lie. As it currently stands, the credit card service company is not being held responsible. It is allowed to be sued, but proof still needs to be produced. But here, let's take your analogy and add in some additional information. "You stab someone with a screwdriver, paid with a credit card and credit card service company is held responsible. The credit card company worked with the company to ensure that the company could sell illegal screwdrivers to people who would go around stabbing people with it, and promising that they would continue processing transactions as long as they made some promise to do better." Maybe you can explain why this is okay. > This is the end of the world as we know it. It's not.
- kmlx 4y ago
  > The credit card company worked with the company to ensure that the company could sell illegal screwdrivers to people who would go around stabbing people with it this is not what was happening at all.
- ApolloFortyNine 4y ago
  >Maybe you can explain why this is okay. If you can't explain how this is different from the domain name registrar, the datacenter, and even the power and water companies serving the datacenter, then this would allow future lawsuits against these parts that most of us take for granted as a dumb pipe. Instead of being an automated process essentially to sign up for these services, you will have to interview and provide key parts of your business to each of these, so they can decide if you're worth the risk. And if you allow user uploaded content at all, good luck in this future. >This is the end of the world as we know it. These sites are already only allowed to exists with processor fees over 20%. If an alternative, easy, payment platform isn't established (and one hasn't been for decades) these sites and any others deemed 'risky' will cease to exists, and the bar will steadily be raised from there.

You stab someone with a screwdriver, paid with a credit card and credit card service company is held responsible. This is the end of the world as we know it.

by tyiz 4y ago

You stab someone with a screwdriver, paid with a credit card and credit card service company is held responsible. This is the end of the world as we know it.

Aachen 4y ago

That is what it sounds like honestly, as if the payment provider has to go check on available security footage what the screwdriver was used for (in this case, they could have checked on the site and, potentially, by having their employees look at a lot of porn, found an instance of child porn somewhere) and then discontinue providing services to the store until they put background checks in place for customers. A lot more reasonable for porn than for screwdrivers, but to sue a party so far removed from the person who actually uploaded that child porn and is ultimately the main responsible party... then you can also sue the hosting company, the company that opened up the street to put in cables to transmit the child porn (they could have checked what it's used for), the ISP that was used to access it, et cetera This is really just suing everyone to see what sticks, no way that this goes anywhere... right?

Miner49er 4y ago
I can see there being a bar where it is reasonable that Visa should have known it was happening. For the screwdriver example, I think everyone would agree it would be unreasonable for Visa to know what was going to happen. For this case, it is kind of common sense that at some point child porn or at least revenge porn would be uploaded to PH, and they are a very large company that works with Visa, so maybe Visa should have known it was possible? I guess that goes with every company that does business with PH. There has to be a line somewhere where a company starts being responsible for knowingly doing business with an entity doing illegal things, this lawsuit it maybe just testing that line.
- zmgsabst 4y ago
  We know at least some screwdrivers (and other hand tools) are used for murder, based on records of murder by the government. Visa should have known the risk of screwdrivers without background checks! Why didn’t they cut off Home Depot?
- bennyp101 4y ago
  That kinda stuff I guess gets uploaded to any sort of “social media” site, so Facebook, twitter, etc, where do they draw the line of just not accepting payments?
  - martin_a 4y ago
    There have been very unfortunate pictures of me on Facebook, I think Visa should stop taking payments for them. /s Nah, I think you got the point. With social media and user-generated content at whole, it's simply not possible to not have some foul eggs in the basket.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  It seems reasonable to assume that somewhere out there screwdrivers are being miss used. >There has to be a line somewhere where a company starts being responsible for knowingly doing business with an entity doing illegal things Isn't that the point of business licensing? It is weird for the state, courts, and law enforcement to permit a company to operate legally, but hold their business partners to a higher standard. Visa didn't have any inside info on pornhub that the state and law enforcement didn't have inside
- martin_a 4y ago
  > revenge porn would be uploaded to PH Does this look different than other porn? I mean, how is PH supposed to know it's revenge porn, when it's being uploaded? I don't think you can effectively find and filter that. You can only react to complaints afterwards.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]

enos_feedler 4y ago

The difference is the store you bought the screw driver from isn’t knowing and willfully enabling heinous acts on an active and ongoing basis. Nobody would place anyone responsible in this case. Visa is fully aware of PH and what they are doing and choosing to continue enabling the business.

Aspos 4y ago
And so does electric utility serving PH. So does a catering company serving them luch, so does a real estate company providing them with office space. Why single out payment processor?
- erichocean 4y ago
  > And so does electric utility serving PH. Electric utilities, by law, must provide service to everyone (who has the ability to pay).
- jasonlotito 4y ago
  Money. Money goes to PH via Visa. This allows them to operate. If the catering company, real estate company, or electric utility is serving as a front to process payments for PH, then they can be sued as well. Why do you think Visa should be left off the hook if it conspired with PH to profit from CP?
  - kmlx 4y ago
    > Why do you think Visa should be left off the hook if it conspired with PH to profit from CP? who did what now?
  - Pigalowda 4y ago
    This comment looks like an example of reaction formation.
- s1artibartfast 4y ago
  More importantly if we follow that line on reasoning, so does the state that allows PH to operate and should be the actual arbiter of legally operating company. The question should be quite simple. Was Ph licensed to operate legally and does Visa have any inside information that isn't available to the state and legislators.

theotherfunk 4y ago

jasonlotito 4y ago

> You stab someone with a screwdriver, paid with a credit card and credit card service company is held responsible. So, while I think your stance is wrong for many reasons, this is misrepresenting what is happening and it a flat out lie. As it currently stands, the credit card service company is not being held responsible. It is allowed to be sued, but proof still needs to be produced. But here, let's take your analogy and add in some additional information. "You stab someone with a screwdriver, paid with a credit card and credit card service company is held responsible. The credit card company worked with the company to ensure that the company could sell illegal screwdrivers to people who would go around stabbing people with it, and promising that they would continue processing transactions as long as they made some promise to do better." Maybe you can explain why this is okay. > This is the end of the world as we know it. It's not.

kmlx 4y ago
> The credit card company worked with the company to ensure that the company could sell illegal screwdrivers to people who would go around stabbing people with it this is not what was happening at all.
ApolloFortyNine 4y ago
>Maybe you can explain why this is okay. If you can't explain how this is different from the domain name registrar, the datacenter, and even the power and water companies serving the datacenter, then this would allow future lawsuits against these parts that most of us take for granted as a dumb pipe. Instead of being an automated process essentially to sign up for these services, you will have to interview and provide key parts of your business to each of these, so they can decide if you're worth the risk. And if you allow user uploaded content at all, good luck in this future. >This is the end of the world as we know it. These sites are already only allowed to exists with processor fees over 20%. If an alternative, easy, payment platform isn't established (and one hasn't been for decades) these sites and any others deemed 'risky' will cease to exists, and the bar will steadily be raised from there.