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>the winners get a job from which people routinely retire rich in their 30s, and the losers... don't Honestly, I find this ridiculous. Firstly, Yes, working at

>the winners get a job from which people routinely retire rich in their 30s, and the losers... don't Honestly, I find this ridiculous. Firstly, Yes, working at Jane Street is a well paying job and you'll do well out of it. No. People aren't routinely retiring in their 30s. I don't understand where this absurd idea comes from. Look at all the rich people in the world, look at how old they are, and ask, are they retired? No! People who are driven and smart don't suddenly earn their first $5m go off and buy an annuity. They're more likely to go off and found their own trading shop at 30 than they are to retire. Secondly, you know what happens to people who don't get hired after their internship at Jane Street? They go to HRT, to G Research, to Jump, to Citadel, to Optiver, to IMC, to XTX, if they're really unsuccessful they'll go to Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Meta. These are not people desperate for a job.

altdataseller 4y ago
“ Look at all the rich people in the world, look at how old they are, and ask, are they retired? No! People who are driven and smart don't suddenly earn their first $5m go off and buy an annuity.” No but having the freedom to start your own trading shop (or company) is hugely different than having to stick with a job you mostly don’t like to pay the bills
benreesman 4y ago
I think the author meant "could retire very comfortably in their 30s", and you're correct to point out that's not what it literally says. But as for "could"? Shit you can do that at Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Meta if you're in that league and start out of undergrad. In my experience (more than a few of my FAANG-era colleagues either came from or went to high-technology finance), people don't actually leave Google to go to Jane for the money (which is similar at the p99), if you're a baller willing to pull the hours you can make many millions a year in either place. I think people go to high-technology finance because they want to test themselves against a harder class of problem in a more adversarial setting against people who feel the same. That's anecdotal, but my sample size is more than two or three.
- fiprofessor 4y ago
  > I think people go to high-technology finance because they want to test themselves against a harder class of problem in a more adversarial setting against people who feel the same. Maybe this is so at other finance firms, but my experience with developers who go to Jane Street is quite different. Because Jane Street heavily advertises OCaml as part of its recruiting strategy, I know many people who ended up there just because they wanted to program in OCaml while still getting FAANG comparable salaries. They don't care at all about finance (at least initially, maybe it becomes an acquired taste for some).
  - bitcharmer 4y ago
    Having worked in HFT for well over a decade now, I'd say OCaml is more of a deterrent than helps in getting access to larger pool of talent.
    - JonChesterfield 4y ago
      Every few months or so I run out of patience with C++ and wonder about the alternatives, of which there seem to be very few in HFT. Jane Street stands out for that reason. It's a smaller talent pool but I don't think it's a subset of those that the C++ shops can attract.
      - bitcharmer 4y ago
        Rust is getting pretty popular among low latency firms. Many of my peers (myself included) would definitely show interest in a rust shop. OCaml - not so much.
        nequo 4y ago
        > OCaml - not so much. Is that only because OCaml has more of an FP flavor, or is it something else about the language?
    - fiprofessor 4y ago
mkl95 4y ago
> Look at all the rich people in the world, look at how old they are, and ask, are they retired? No! People who are driven and smart don't suddenly earn their first $5m go off and buy an annuity. They're more likely to go off and found their own trading shop at 30 than they are to retire. This kind of debate needs to be backed up by numbers or it won't be very productive. To get started we should know the percentage of millionaires in their 30s who are still working, and the ones who aren't working but are looking for a job. Personally I can think of several things I would do with $5m other than buying an annuity. If you have that kind of money you are basically set for life if you make a few right choices.
- TrackerFF 4y ago
  Yes, all depends on how you spend your money. $5m will get you something decent in Manhattan, but you could live like a King somewhere else. I have a friend that retired off just over $1m as he moved back to his small hometown. House cost $30k, drives the same car for 15 years, lives frugally.
  - darkwater 4y ago
    If you live in a place where a house costs $30k and on top of that you live frugally, you can probably retire with half of that already.
- altdataseller 4y ago
  What would you do with $5m?
ThinkBeat 4y ago
It is possible that people who chose to retire after they feel they have enough people to do it, would not be noticeably visible. Why spend time covering a guy who has retired and living a quiet life?
mabbo 4y ago
> People who are driven and smart don't suddenly earn their first $5m go off and buy an annuity I guess I must not be driven, because I would. Or at least something close enough to that. $5m just earning interest at 5%ish is way more income than I need to live the lifestyle I want. I'd buy a few acres in the middle of no where, build a nice house, grow a big garden, raise my daughter as a nice family man and never work again. Obligatory "Office Space" scene on "what would you do with a million dollars": https://youtu.be/4lmW2tZP2kU https://youtu.be/4lmW2tZP2kU
- baby 4y ago
  The thing is, if you end up in a job that pays this well it’s because you’re either very lucky (and congrats to you) or you’re very passionate. If you’re in the latter category why would you retire when you’re being paid to do what you love?
  - greatpostman 4y ago
    This isn’t true. It’s most likely because you went to an Ivy League school
    - UncleOxidant 4y ago
      Hence lucky to have been born to wealthy parents.
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    Passions change. Also, I'd guess most CS grads going to work for JS aren't passionate about stock trading/market arbitrage - they're passionate about the pay or maybe OCaml, but the actual thing that JS does, probably not - it seems hard to be passionate about in and of itself (would someone work there for free because they were having so much fun?). And even if someone might be initially, they likely won't be after 5 years and enough money to retire on comfortably.
  - mabbo 4y ago
    > it’s because you’re either very lucky (and congrats to you) or you’re very passionate. It's never because you're very passionate. Passion has basically no correlation with financial success. Millions of passionate artists, musicians, writers, and all of them broke as can be, most working shit jobs to pay the bills wishing they could just be passionate and make money from that. Passion is bullshit. The real path to financial success is a combination of: being born to parents with the means and motivation to see you well education; being born lucky enough to be a little bit clever; being lucky to pick a career that makes a lot of money, often only by ignoring idiots who say 'follow your passion; putting in a lot of hard work to get good at something that is in-demand. Or the usual answer: just being born wealthy and wouldn't-you-know-it you wound up wealthy too.
Ekaros 4y ago
I think there is also a big question of what sort of spending habits these people have acquired. Their peers are making lot of money. And I doubt everyone is extremely frugal. Margin Call I think gave pretty good example how some in other firms might be spending their income. Stepping down and just starting to live on annuity might not fit to what they have come to expect.
- matred 4y ago
  The culture of HFT (CS/JS/CHI.*/Optiver/IMC) is not 80/90/2000’s IB.
- keiferski 4y ago
  The relevant scene: https://youtu.be/xW1CrQu_H6E https://youtu.be/xW1CrQu_H6E Great film.
thesausageking 4y ago
It's very, very common for rank and file prop traders to retire in their 30s. Some are ambitious and start their own firm or keep doing it, but many decide $10m/$50m/whatever is enough and leave the industry. They likely got into it just to make money, not because they loved it, so once you have enough, why keep going?

altdataseller 4y ago

“ Look at all the rich people in the world, look at how old they are, and ask, are they retired? No! People who are driven and smart don't suddenly earn their first $5m go off and buy an annuity.” No but having the freedom to start your own trading shop (or company) is hugely different than having to stick with a job you mostly don’t like to pay the bills

benreesman 4y ago

I think the author meant "could retire very comfortably in their 30s", and you're correct to point out that's not what it literally says. But as for "could"? Shit you can do that at Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Meta if you're in that league and start out of undergrad. In my experience (more than a few of my FAANG-era colleagues either came from or went to high-technology finance), people don't actually leave Google to go to Jane for the money (which is similar at the p99), if you're a baller willing to pull the hours you can make many millions a year in either place. I think people go to high-technology finance because they want to test themselves against a harder class of problem in a more adversarial setting against people who feel the same. That's anecdotal, but my sample size is more than two or three.

fiprofessor 4y ago
> I think people go to high-technology finance because they want to test themselves against a harder class of problem in a more adversarial setting against people who feel the same. Maybe this is so at other finance firms, but my experience with developers who go to Jane Street is quite different. Because Jane Street heavily advertises OCaml as part of its recruiting strategy, I know many people who ended up there just because they wanted to program in OCaml while still getting FAANG comparable salaries. They don't care at all about finance (at least initially, maybe it becomes an acquired taste for some).
- bitcharmer 4y ago
  Having worked in HFT for well over a decade now, I'd say OCaml is more of a deterrent than helps in getting access to larger pool of talent.
  - JonChesterfield 4y ago
    Every few months or so I run out of patience with C++ and wonder about the alternatives, of which there seem to be very few in HFT. Jane Street stands out for that reason. It's a smaller talent pool but I don't think it's a subset of those that the C++ shops can attract.
    - bitcharmer 4y ago
      Rust is getting pretty popular among low latency firms. Many of my peers (myself included) would definitely show interest in a rust shop. OCaml - not so much.
      - nequo 4y ago
        > OCaml - not so much. Is that only because OCaml has more of an FP flavor, or is it something else about the language?
  - fiprofessor 4y ago

mkl95 4y ago

> Look at all the rich people in the world, look at how old they are, and ask, are they retired? No! People who are driven and smart don't suddenly earn their first $5m go off and buy an annuity. They're more likely to go off and found their own trading shop at 30 than they are to retire. This kind of debate needs to be backed up by numbers or it won't be very productive. To get started we should know the percentage of millionaires in their 30s who are still working, and the ones who aren't working but are looking for a job. Personally I can think of several things I would do with $5m other than buying an annuity. If you have that kind of money you are basically set for life if you make a few right choices.

TrackerFF 4y ago
Yes, all depends on how you spend your money. $5m will get you something decent in Manhattan, but you could live like a King somewhere else. I have a friend that retired off just over $1m as he moved back to his small hometown. House cost $30k, drives the same car for 15 years, lives frugally.
- darkwater 4y ago
  If you live in a place where a house costs $30k and on top of that you live frugally, you can probably retire with half of that already.
altdataseller 4y ago
What would you do with $5m?

ThinkBeat 4y ago

It is possible that people who chose to retire after they feel they have enough people to do it, would not be noticeably visible. Why spend time covering a guy who has retired and living a quiet life?

mabbo 4y ago

> People who are driven and smart don't suddenly earn their first $5m go off and buy an annuity I guess I must not be driven, because I would. Or at least something close enough to that. $5m just earning interest at 5%ish is way more income than I need to live the lifestyle I want. I'd buy a few acres in the middle of no where, build a nice house, grow a big garden, raise my daughter as a nice family man and never work again. Obligatory "Office Space" scene on "what would you do with a million dollars": https://youtu.be/4lmW2tZP2kU https://youtu.be/4lmW2tZP2kU

baby 4y ago
The thing is, if you end up in a job that pays this well it’s because you’re either very lucky (and congrats to you) or you’re very passionate. If you’re in the latter category why would you retire when you’re being paid to do what you love?
- greatpostman 4y ago
  This isn’t true. It’s most likely because you went to an Ivy League school
  - UncleOxidant 4y ago
    Hence lucky to have been born to wealthy parents.
- UncleOxidant 4y ago
  Passions change. Also, I'd guess most CS grads going to work for JS aren't passionate about stock trading/market arbitrage - they're passionate about the pay or maybe OCaml, but the actual thing that JS does, probably not - it seems hard to be passionate about in and of itself (would someone work there for free because they were having so much fun?). And even if someone might be initially, they likely won't be after 5 years and enough money to retire on comfortably.
- mabbo 4y ago
  > it’s because you’re either very lucky (and congrats to you) or you’re very passionate. It's never because you're very passionate. Passion has basically no correlation with financial success. Millions of passionate artists, musicians, writers, and all of them broke as can be, most working shit jobs to pay the bills wishing they could just be passionate and make money from that. Passion is bullshit. The real path to financial success is a combination of: being born to parents with the means and motivation to see you well education; being born lucky enough to be a little bit clever; being lucky to pick a career that makes a lot of money, often only by ignoring idiots who say 'follow your passion; putting in a lot of hard work to get good at something that is in-demand. Or the usual answer: just being born wealthy and wouldn't-you-know-it you wound up wealthy too.

Ekaros 4y ago

I think there is also a big question of what sort of spending habits these people have acquired. Their peers are making lot of money. And I doubt everyone is extremely frugal. Margin Call I think gave pretty good example how some in other firms might be spending their income. Stepping down and just starting to live on annuity might not fit to what they have come to expect.

matred 4y ago
The culture of HFT (CS/JS/CHI.*/Optiver/IMC) is not 80/90/2000’s IB.
keiferski 4y ago
The relevant scene: https://youtu.be/xW1CrQu_H6E https://youtu.be/xW1CrQu_H6E Great film.

thesausageking 4y ago

It's very, very common for rank and file prop traders to retire in their 30s. Some are ambitious and start their own firm or keep doing it, but many decide $10m/$50m/whatever is enough and leave the industry. They likely got into it just to make money, not because they loved it, so once you have enough, why keep going?