5 ms·

Don't get me wrong, I like Formula E but "fastest ever electric racer" isn't saying much at this point. These things are still pretty slow compared to F1 which

by bragr 4y ago

Don't get me wrong, I like Formula E but "fastest ever electric racer" isn't saying much at this point. These things are still pretty slow compared to F1 which is why I think they rarely show exhibitions of them up against each other.

themitigating 4y ago
https://m.facebook.com/TheStig/videos/drag-race-formula-e-vs-wrc-vs-formula-one-in-the-wet-top-gear-christmas-special-/281229823990843/ https://m.facebook.com/TheStig/videos/drag-race-formula-e-vs... And F1 compared to McMurtry Spéirling EV at GoodWood https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Q7a0hfp-A https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Q7a0hfp-A
- PaulKeeble 4y ago
  Its definitely not a speed issue, we can make very fast electric cars and the torque and horsepower delivery is vastly superior to a hydrocarbon engine. The problem is energy density. Petrol stores a lot more energy in a smaller space and weight than a battery currently and that accounts for a large amount of the deficit between them for race distances. Still Formula E is improving and it has a future in a net zero world where as the hydrocarbon super cars of F1 likely do not.
- jacquesm 4y ago
  That second link is just insane, the way that thing gets going and maintains speed through the corners is out of this world. I wonder what the disturbance in the air behind the middle of the car is, probably dust but it looks a bit strange for that. Or is it sucking itself to the ground (if so then that makes the run a lot less impressive, F1 outlawed that long ago).
  - jackmott 4y ago
    It is all electric rear wheel drive with two fans that suck it to the ground, and the skirt lasts a long time!
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Ah ok, then this is an apples to oranges comparison. Thank you!
  - ctchocula 4y ago
    They actually brought back ground effect this year with the newest regulation change. The argument was that if cars relied on ground effect for downforce and less on front and rear wings, cars could have an easier time following the car ahead because the turbulent air becomes less of a factor (due to ground effect not being as susceptible as the front wing to turbulent air) and being able to follow more closely makes for better racing. As a fan, I certainly can't complain. The commentators certainly never miss a chance to remind us how good the new regulations are.
    - jacquesm 4y ago
      Yes, but that's not using fans, or is it?
      - ctchocula 4y ago
        Not fans exactly, but the Bernoulli principle, which is sufficient to keep the car sucked to the track if the floor is designed in a specific way [0][1] [0] https://motorsport-magazine.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/19172031/Underneath-view-of-2021-F1-car.jpg https://motorsport-magazine.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/wp-co... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_(cars) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_(cars)
        jacquesm 4y ago
        Yes, but that only works above a minimum speed, fans work all the time so that is why that electric car in the video moves like it is on rails. If that F1 car had had fans it would likely be just as fast, the difference is minimal as it is.
- justin66 4y ago
  > And F1 compared to McMurtry Spéirling EV at GoodWood A 23-year old F1 car - for whatever reason, the FIA doesn't let the teams do timed runs at Goodwood anymore. It'd be neat if they took their car for a test at a track where F1 races.
  - themitigating 4y ago
    Due to FIA regulations you can't assume newer F1 cars are always faster.
    - InitialLastName 4y ago
      That car got pole at Brazil with a 76.568-second lap. Last year, the pole lap was 67.934 seconds; I think it's safe to say a modern F1 car would be substantially faster at Goodwood too (almost certainly fast enough to make up the difference in lap times.
    - justin66 4y ago
      Due to recorded lap times on race tracks, you very certainly can. They're not in the same league. There's always the argument that some obvious engine power restrictions in the rules could be worked around to make any given race car faster (Porsche with the 919 recently showed how spectacular the results of that tinkering can be), but the number of extreme improvements to F1 cars over the last 23 years in every area (aero, tires, brakes, engine, electronics, whatever) is something to contemplate. There is some very low hanging fruit you could grab involving use of the battery and DRS if you wanted to ignore the rules and make a 2022 F1 car faster over one lap for the purposes of this comparison, so there's also that...
epolanski 4y ago
ICEs are lighter than electric ones, formula 1 will always be faster than anything. I really have a hard time liking formula e, the lack of engine sound takes away lots of excitement.
- elcomet 4y ago
  On the contrary, I think it's really amazing to have silent racing cars!
- nomel 4y ago
  I wonder if they could tweak the PWM to give some louder, pleasing, sound.
  - gen3 4y ago
    I went to the New York race a couple weeks ago. When they pass by you as a group, they really sound like a TV spaceship taking off
- somerandomqaguy 4y ago
  FWIW the Mugen TT Electric Motorcycles sounds pretty sweet up close: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-O5c9NM0w&t=120s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-O5c9NM0w&t=120s Like a small cruise missile powered by a turbofan mounted on two wheels.
- jackmott 4y ago
joshu 4y ago
Volkswagen ID.R on Pike's Peak?
- nomel 4y ago
  Formula 1 is designed under very very strict, often year specific, rules, from aerodynamics, suspension, to max power capability. I'm not sure it's fair to compare them, since the context is so different. In that video (6:13), they even admit that's the main advantage: the unregulated freedom of the design. A better comparison would be a Volkswagen ID.R with an ICE compared to an electric Volkswagen ID.R. At this point in the tech, the ICE will almost certainly win.
  - cco 4y ago
    I think the ID.R holds the overall record at Pike's Peak, ICE or otherwise.
    - nomel 4y ago
      Yeap, beating the previous record by 16 seconds, 7:57.148 vs 8:13.378 [1]. The previous record holder being a Peugeot 208 [2], with the aerodynamics of a brick, but with 875hp and weighing 325kg less than the ID.R. ID.R has 671hp at ~1200kg. It's also the second fastest at Nurburgring, behind by 45 seconds, 6:05.336 vs 5:19.546 [3]. It's an incredible car! 1. https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/21731/volkswagen-i-d-r-smashes-loebs-pikes-peak-record-by-16-seconds https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/21731/volkswagen-i-d-r-... 2. https://www.supercars.net/blog/2013-peugeot-208-t16-pikes-peak/ https://www.supercars.net/blog/2013-peugeot-208-t16-pikes-pe... 3. https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a2140371/volkswagen-idr-drops-605-ring-making-it-fastest-electric-car-ever/ https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a2140371/volkswagen...
      - bob29 4y ago
        haha suck it, internal combustion engine cars.
- jacquesm 4y ago
pmontra 4y ago
F1 and F3 have been racing on the very same track at Montecarlo since last year. FE is more or less a Formula 3 car there. Then FE has some silly tracks like London last weekend. To be fair, F1 on a non oval circuit is much faster than anything else. Check the times of F1 and Indycar at COTA.
- InitialLastName 4y ago
  Going deeper on this comparison because I only just remembered it was a comparison we could make: In the 2022 Monaco E-Prix (FE), the best qualifying lap time was 89.839s [0]. For the 2022 Monaco Grand Prix (F1), the pole was 71.376s [1]. It's worth noting that this is with slower cars than have recently been the case; the same times last year were > 1 second faster. The top level Formula 3 series (currently FIA International F3, formerly GP3/European F3) doesn't race at Monaco; the last time a top tier F3 championship did race there was GP3 in 2012 (88.008s) [2]. Note that these are 10-year-old cars; current top-tier F3 cars are ~15% faster [3] (at modern Silverstone, which is the only circuit configuration used both years) than they were in 2012. While GP3/F3 weren't present, Formula Regional European, a Tier 4 series that races in Formula 3 cars did race there; pole was 89.802s [4]. However, these are a lower tier of driver and team; last year, they were 7% slower at Barcelona [5] than FIA F3. As such, one could argue that current FIA F3 would be a bit (10%?) faster than Formula E cars at Monaco. On the other hand, this comparison is not quite fair to the electric cars! The chemically-fueled cars do qualifying with as little fuel as possible (to reduce their weight to the minimum), where electric cars have to take the full weight hit of their total energy store during qualifying. The F1 cars can't come anywhere near their qualifying pace until the very end of the race; in theory, a Formula E car would be capable of a qualifying-paced lap at any point during the race. As such, we should also compare Formula 1 cars' paces at the start of the race. Unfortunately for the comparison this year, the F1 race started off wet; the fastest laps around Lap 3 (after the start had cleared) were ~101s [6]. The 2021 Monaco Grand Prix, which was dry, is an easier example: the fastest laps on lap 3 were about 77s [7] , still substantially faster than the FE cars ever get. To make the Indycar comparison we need to look all the way back to 2019, since Indycar has scrupulously avoided racing at F1 tracks whenever possible, up to and including conspicuously not marketing the Indianapolis road course to F1 (despite its qualifications and history as an F1 track, and the soaring demand for US-based F1 races). In that event, the fastest qualifying lap was 105.454s [8]. For F1, the pole lap of the 2019 US GP was 93.750 [9]. There is a reason Indycar avoids comparisons. [0] https://formulaspy.com/formula-e/qualifying-results-2022-monaco-e-prix-78884 https://formulaspy.com/formula-e/qualifying-results-2022-mon... [1] https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2022/races/1112/monaco/qualifying.html https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2022/races/1112/mon... [2] https://motorsportstats.com/results/gp3-series/2012/monaco/classification/2nd-qualifying https://motorsportstats.com/results/gp3-series/2012/monaco/c... [3] https://www.fiaformula3.com/Results?raceid=1032 https://www.fiaformula3.com/Results?raceid=1032 [4] https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/monaco-2022/ https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/monaco-2022/ [5] https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/barcelona-2021/ https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/barcelona-2021/ [6] https://www.racefans.net/2022/05/29/2022-monaco-grand-prix-interactive-data-lap-charts-times-and-tyres/ https://www.racefans.net/2022/05/29/2022-monaco-grand-prix-i... [7] https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/23/2021-monaco-grand-prix-interactive-data-lap-charts-times-and-tyres/ https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/23/2021-monaco-grand-prix-i... [8] https://www.indycar.com/results/ntt-indycar-series/2019/indycar-classic/qualifications---round-2 https://www.indycar.com/results/ntt-indycar-series/2019/indy...

by bragr 4y ago

themitigating 4y ago

https://m.facebook.com/TheStig/videos/drag-race-formula-e-vs-wrc-vs-formula-one-in-the-wet-top-gear-christmas-special-/281229823990843/ https://m.facebook.com/TheStig/videos/drag-race-formula-e-vs... And F1 compared to McMurtry Spéirling EV at GoodWood https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Q7a0hfp-A https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_-Q7a0hfp-A

PaulKeeble 4y ago
Its definitely not a speed issue, we can make very fast electric cars and the torque and horsepower delivery is vastly superior to a hydrocarbon engine. The problem is energy density. Petrol stores a lot more energy in a smaller space and weight than a battery currently and that accounts for a large amount of the deficit between them for race distances. Still Formula E is improving and it has a future in a net zero world where as the hydrocarbon super cars of F1 likely do not.
jacquesm 4y ago
That second link is just insane, the way that thing gets going and maintains speed through the corners is out of this world. I wonder what the disturbance in the air behind the middle of the car is, probably dust but it looks a bit strange for that. Or is it sucking itself to the ground (if so then that makes the run a lot less impressive, F1 outlawed that long ago).
- jackmott 4y ago
  It is all electric rear wheel drive with two fans that suck it to the ground, and the skirt lasts a long time!
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Ah ok, then this is an apples to oranges comparison. Thank you!
- ctchocula 4y ago
  They actually brought back ground effect this year with the newest regulation change. The argument was that if cars relied on ground effect for downforce and less on front and rear wings, cars could have an easier time following the car ahead because the turbulent air becomes less of a factor (due to ground effect not being as susceptible as the front wing to turbulent air) and being able to follow more closely makes for better racing. As a fan, I certainly can't complain. The commentators certainly never miss a chance to remind us how good the new regulations are.
  - jacquesm 4y ago
    Yes, but that's not using fans, or is it?
    - ctchocula 4y ago
      Not fans exactly, but the Bernoulli principle, which is sufficient to keep the car sucked to the track if the floor is designed in a specific way [0][1] [0] https://motorsport-magazine.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/19172031/Underneath-view-of-2021-F1-car.jpg https://motorsport-magazine.s3.eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/wp-co... [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_(cars) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_effect_(cars)
      - jacquesm 4y ago
        Yes, but that only works above a minimum speed, fans work all the time so that is why that electric car in the video moves like it is on rails. If that F1 car had had fans it would likely be just as fast, the difference is minimal as it is.
justin66 4y ago
> And F1 compared to McMurtry Spéirling EV at GoodWood A 23-year old F1 car - for whatever reason, the FIA doesn't let the teams do timed runs at Goodwood anymore. It'd be neat if they took their car for a test at a track where F1 races.
- themitigating 4y ago
  Due to FIA regulations you can't assume newer F1 cars are always faster.
  - InitialLastName 4y ago
    That car got pole at Brazil with a 76.568-second lap. Last year, the pole lap was 67.934 seconds; I think it's safe to say a modern F1 car would be substantially faster at Goodwood too (almost certainly fast enough to make up the difference in lap times.
  - justin66 4y ago
    Due to recorded lap times on race tracks, you very certainly can. They're not in the same league. There's always the argument that some obvious engine power restrictions in the rules could be worked around to make any given race car faster (Porsche with the 919 recently showed how spectacular the results of that tinkering can be), but the number of extreme improvements to F1 cars over the last 23 years in every area (aero, tires, brakes, engine, electronics, whatever) is something to contemplate. There is some very low hanging fruit you could grab involving use of the battery and DRS if you wanted to ignore the rules and make a 2022 F1 car faster over one lap for the purposes of this comparison, so there's also that...

epolanski 4y ago

ICEs are lighter than electric ones, formula 1 will always be faster than anything. I really have a hard time liking formula e, the lack of engine sound takes away lots of excitement.

elcomet 4y ago
On the contrary, I think it's really amazing to have silent racing cars!
nomel 4y ago
I wonder if they could tweak the PWM to give some louder, pleasing, sound.
- gen3 4y ago
  I went to the New York race a couple weeks ago. When they pass by you as a group, they really sound like a TV spaceship taking off
somerandomqaguy 4y ago
FWIW the Mugen TT Electric Motorcycles sounds pretty sweet up close: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-O5c9NM0w&t=120s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-O5c9NM0w&t=120s Like a small cruise missile powered by a turbofan mounted on two wheels.
jackmott 4y ago

joshu 4y ago

Volkswagen ID.R on Pike's Peak?

nomel 4y ago
Formula 1 is designed under very very strict, often year specific, rules, from aerodynamics, suspension, to max power capability. I'm not sure it's fair to compare them, since the context is so different. In that video (6:13), they even admit that's the main advantage: the unregulated freedom of the design. A better comparison would be a Volkswagen ID.R with an ICE compared to an electric Volkswagen ID.R. At this point in the tech, the ICE will almost certainly win.
- cco 4y ago
  I think the ID.R holds the overall record at Pike's Peak, ICE or otherwise.
  - nomel 4y ago
    Yeap, beating the previous record by 16 seconds, 7:57.148 vs 8:13.378 [1]. The previous record holder being a Peugeot 208 [2], with the aerodynamics of a brick, but with 875hp and weighing 325kg less than the ID.R. ID.R has 671hp at ~1200kg. It's also the second fastest at Nurburgring, behind by 45 seconds, 6:05.336 vs 5:19.546 [3]. It's an incredible car! 1. https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/21731/volkswagen-i-d-r-smashes-loebs-pikes-peak-record-by-16-seconds https://www.thedrive.com/accelerator/21731/volkswagen-i-d-r-... 2. https://www.supercars.net/blog/2013-peugeot-208-t16-pikes-peak/ https://www.supercars.net/blog/2013-peugeot-208-t16-pikes-pe... 3. https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a2140371/volkswagen-idr-drops-605-ring-making-it-fastest-electric-car-ever/ https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a2140371/volkswagen...
    - bob29 4y ago
      haha suck it, internal combustion engine cars.
jacquesm 4y ago

pmontra 4y ago

F1 and F3 have been racing on the very same track at Montecarlo since last year. FE is more or less a Formula 3 car there. Then FE has some silly tracks like London last weekend. To be fair, F1 on a non oval circuit is much faster than anything else. Check the times of F1 and Indycar at COTA.

InitialLastName 4y ago
Going deeper on this comparison because I only just remembered it was a comparison we could make: In the 2022 Monaco E-Prix (FE), the best qualifying lap time was 89.839s [0]. For the 2022 Monaco Grand Prix (F1), the pole was 71.376s [1]. It's worth noting that this is with slower cars than have recently been the case; the same times last year were > 1 second faster. The top level Formula 3 series (currently FIA International F3, formerly GP3/European F3) doesn't race at Monaco; the last time a top tier F3 championship did race there was GP3 in 2012 (88.008s) [2]. Note that these are 10-year-old cars; current top-tier F3 cars are ~15% faster [3] (at modern Silverstone, which is the only circuit configuration used both years) than they were in 2012. While GP3/F3 weren't present, Formula Regional European, a Tier 4 series that races in Formula 3 cars did race there; pole was 89.802s [4]. However, these are a lower tier of driver and team; last year, they were 7% slower at Barcelona [5] than FIA F3. As such, one could argue that current FIA F3 would be a bit (10%?) faster than Formula E cars at Monaco. On the other hand, this comparison is not quite fair to the electric cars! The chemically-fueled cars do qualifying with as little fuel as possible (to reduce their weight to the minimum), where electric cars have to take the full weight hit of their total energy store during qualifying. The F1 cars can't come anywhere near their qualifying pace until the very end of the race; in theory, a Formula E car would be capable of a qualifying-paced lap at any point during the race. As such, we should also compare Formula 1 cars' paces at the start of the race. Unfortunately for the comparison this year, the F1 race started off wet; the fastest laps around Lap 3 (after the start had cleared) were ~101s [6]. The 2021 Monaco Grand Prix, which was dry, is an easier example: the fastest laps on lap 3 were about 77s [7] , still substantially faster than the FE cars ever get. To make the Indycar comparison we need to look all the way back to 2019, since Indycar has scrupulously avoided racing at F1 tracks whenever possible, up to and including conspicuously not marketing the Indianapolis road course to F1 (despite its qualifications and history as an F1 track, and the soaring demand for US-based F1 races). In that event, the fastest qualifying lap was 105.454s [8]. For F1, the pole lap of the 2019 US GP was 93.750 [9]. There is a reason Indycar avoids comparisons. [0] https://formulaspy.com/formula-e/qualifying-results-2022-monaco-e-prix-78884 https://formulaspy.com/formula-e/qualifying-results-2022-mon... [1] https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2022/races/1112/monaco/qualifying.html https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2022/races/1112/mon... [2] https://motorsportstats.com/results/gp3-series/2012/monaco/classification/2nd-qualifying https://motorsportstats.com/results/gp3-series/2012/monaco/c... [3] https://www.fiaformula3.com/Results?raceid=1032 https://www.fiaformula3.com/Results?raceid=1032 [4] https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/monaco-2022/ https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/monaco-2022/ [5] https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/barcelona-2021/ https://formularegionaleubyalpine.com/corsa/barcelona-2021/ [6] https://www.racefans.net/2022/05/29/2022-monaco-grand-prix-interactive-data-lap-charts-times-and-tyres/ https://www.racefans.net/2022/05/29/2022-monaco-grand-prix-i... [7] https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/23/2021-monaco-grand-prix-interactive-data-lap-charts-times-and-tyres/ https://www.racefans.net/2021/05/23/2021-monaco-grand-prix-i... [8] https://www.indycar.com/results/ntt-indycar-series/2019/indycar-classic/qualifications---round-2 https://www.indycar.com/results/ntt-indycar-series/2019/indy...