5 ms·

I personally found Singapore charming when I was there. It's a fascinating mix of several different cultures who all seem to retained many of their traditional

by bnralt 4y ago

I personally found Singapore charming when I was there. It's a fascinating mix of several different cultures who all seem to retained many of their traditional customs. I never understood the sterile critique myself, the city never struck me as such. Gibson's main critique, from what I can tell, is the lack of much of a counterculture similar to what you'd find in the U.S. allied-bloc (Europe, U.S., Canada, Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand), combined with wealth and modernity that you would find in such countries. He compares it to America in the 1950's. I can't help but think there's an underlying prejudice in the way he and others think countries should develop, where as they get richer they should be more like rich countries he's used to (ironically enough, the problem for many seems to be that Singapore _isn't_ the same as the other developed nations they're used to). Though he does praise the food at the hawker centers, which I can at least agree with (and which are far away from any idea of sterile and boring).

fennecfoxy 4y ago
I had to go to Singapore on business. This was when our clients knew I was gay but the thought hadn't really occurred to them to check Singapore's stance on that before settling on that location for some co-op development work. Unfortunately Singapore is, in some ways, much like Dubai. The sad thing is that they're defended with "well it's pretty safe there and they don't really arrest people for that anymore even though they have the legal power to and they have a pride parade and stuff too so it's fine". So why don't they change their laws? It's also another wacky country where being gay is illegal only for men. Like I know certain types of porn are popular with straight guys, but like, seriously?
- 2143 4y ago
  I have a question. Do they prosecute you even if you're simply gay (and not doing any sexual activity whatsoever)?
  - fennecfoxy 4y ago
    Not sure tbh, but usually in places with few gay rights/where "sodomy" is still illegal it supports an atmosphere of hostility towards gay people by the general public - there are places where the government has "legalised it" to seem modern/moral to Western countries but their populace is still violent to gay people. I'm not sure it really matters sexual activity or not, the whole "just don't be gay" or "just don't have sex then" thing is offensive.
brnt 4y ago
Singapore's repression isn't exactly a secret, and if freedom is not a purpose to use your wealth for, then I don't see the point of wealth. Counterculture is healthy and natural for many reasons, and its absence is a concerning indicator for any nation.
- deltree7 4y ago
  - projectazorian 4y ago
    A lot of Singaporeans are unhappy with things, especially in the younger generations. If you've spent any length of time there and talked to people it's not hard to pick up on. There's a reason the government has turned up the level of repression over the past decade.
    - deltree7 4y ago
      A lot of younger Americans, Finnish, Swedish, Danish, Japanese are pretty unhappy too. Have you talked to them?
  - blurbleblurble 4y ago
    I once knew a penpal who grew up in Singapore. They shared with me how frustrating the repressive cultural norms and strict speech / sexuality laws were. It interfered with basic social trust... Like they couldn't be sure if their friends were gonna out them intentionally or unintentionally for something. I got the feeling they felt safe to vent to me and took the chance to do so. None of this is to say the US doesn't have its own issues with authoritarianism and repressive cultural norms. Seems like a pretty global thing right now actually.
    - notahacker 4y ago
      I think one also has to be wary about conflating fear of the government and fear of reaction from their family in a socially conservative society (and Singapore is, whilst certainly less conservative than much of Asia and rarely overt in its homophobia like large minorities in much of the West, a country where more than half the population disapprove of homosexuality). I certainly heard no shortage of worries about outing from people growing up in certain parts of the USA. The Singaporean government's position is illiberal and weirdly contorted on homosexuality (the longstanding and repeatedly reaffirmed policy has been don't remove or enforce the old colonial ban on it, and permit pride events in specific areas) but ironically the reason it hasn't liberalised it yet is because it's afraid of public backlash rather than out of desire to impose behavioural rules on the population.
deltree7 4y ago
Singapore's criticism will always come from 'White Educated Liberals'. If you are earning a comfortable 6 figure salary in a developed nation, living in an extremely safe neighborhood with access to great education and healthcare, you kind assume all those things are easy and the only thing that matters is food/music diversity and counter-culture. For the rest of 7,950,000,000 people on earth, any country that provides safety, basic food, health, decent education is a heaven and wouldn't mind if their own country is like Singapore
- DubiousPusher 4y ago
  I don't think this is a fair observation. I grew up in poverty in the U.S. and even in those days I found the stories of Singapore's authoritarian oppression disturbing. Would I have traded my chilly and mouldering aluminum sides trailer for a clean Singaporean public works apartment and a jackboot hovering around my ass? I'm not sure I would. Now, I'm not sure it was as bad as the stories made it sound. Let's be real. Some amount of what we heard was sensationalized for storytelling effect but don't completely discount that people will forgo material comforts for dignity, honor and autonomy.
  - licebmi__at__ 4y ago
    Not trying to diminish your experience, but you might want to put in balance that a lot of people in the south of US actually risk their lives crossing the border for a chance of living in US poverty.
    - DubiousPusher 4y ago
      Yeah to be very clear, poverty in the U.S. is better than poverty a lot of places. I'm sure there are levels of poverty where one would accept basically any draconian measure if it meant eating on the regular. But that's not the point I was pushing back on. It was this > For the rest of 7,950,000,000 people on earth, any country that provides safety, basic food, health, decent education is a heaven and wouldn't mind if their own country is like Singapore
- 4y ago
projectazorian 4y ago
> I can't help but think there's an underlying prejudice in the way he and others think countries should develop, where as they get richer they should be more like rich countries he's used to (ironically enough, the problem for many seems to be that Singapore _isn't_ the same as the other developed nations they're used to). Gibson didn't look hard enough; there was definitely counterculture in Singapore at the time he wrote the story. A bit lazy on his part, but he's not a trained journalist. And there still is one now, although much less so than in the 90s. The vibe I got from my time there is that most Singaporeans who are counterculture-inclined just leave for larger countries, in the same way a bohemian-inclined Swiss person might move to, say, New York or Berlin. The larger problem Singapore has is that there's very little space for the arts in general, let alone counterculture.
- 8bitsrule 4y ago
  I've personally noticed that multiple US cities have (conveniently?) removed 'room for the arts'/counterculture slowly and almost imperceptibly since the 1980s. Easily-affordable housing (for creatives and low-income students) and storefronts (for their works, performances, and socializing) have been (carelessly? carefully?) shoved aside for more gentrified concerns. Individualized 'cafes' have been 'Starbucked'. The 'unifying conformancy' is never matched by unified rights or incomes. Non-journalist Gibson smelled the 'trend' early. It is also visible in videos which wander 'developed' world city streets. Space for inscrutable (nothing to say) welded sculptures/'child-like' murals always seems to be found. And space for 'approved' historic cultures. But not for an underground press, nor for non-violent protest, nor for authentic graffiti. Not nearly as total, then, but somewhat like North Korea, the land of identical choices. Edit: "Through the policing of all these scales, moral geographies contribute to the construction of desired "Singaporean" identities." ( Singapore Lily on "Music and moral geographies: Constructions of "nation" and identity in Singapore" [https://www.jstor.org/stable/41148026 https://www.jstor.org/stable/41148026])

by bnralt 4y ago

fennecfoxy 4y ago

I had to go to Singapore on business. This was when our clients knew I was gay but the thought hadn't really occurred to them to check Singapore's stance on that before settling on that location for some co-op development work. Unfortunately Singapore is, in some ways, much like Dubai. The sad thing is that they're defended with "well it's pretty safe there and they don't really arrest people for that anymore even though they have the legal power to and they have a pride parade and stuff too so it's fine". So why don't they change their laws? It's also another wacky country where being gay is illegal only for men. Like I know certain types of porn are popular with straight guys, but like, seriously?

2143 4y ago
I have a question. Do they prosecute you even if you're simply gay (and not doing any sexual activity whatsoever)?
- fennecfoxy 4y ago
  Not sure tbh, but usually in places with few gay rights/where "sodomy" is still illegal it supports an atmosphere of hostility towards gay people by the general public - there are places where the government has "legalised it" to seem modern/moral to Western countries but their populace is still violent to gay people. I'm not sure it really matters sexual activity or not, the whole "just don't be gay" or "just don't have sex then" thing is offensive.

brnt 4y ago

Singapore's repression isn't exactly a secret, and if freedom is not a purpose to use your wealth for, then I don't see the point of wealth. Counterculture is healthy and natural for many reasons, and its absence is a concerning indicator for any nation.

deltree7 4y ago
- projectazorian 4y ago
  A lot of Singaporeans are unhappy with things, especially in the younger generations. If you've spent any length of time there and talked to people it's not hard to pick up on. There's a reason the government has turned up the level of repression over the past decade.
  - deltree7 4y ago
    A lot of younger Americans, Finnish, Swedish, Danish, Japanese are pretty unhappy too. Have you talked to them?
- blurbleblurble 4y ago
  I once knew a penpal who grew up in Singapore. They shared with me how frustrating the repressive cultural norms and strict speech / sexuality laws were. It interfered with basic social trust... Like they couldn't be sure if their friends were gonna out them intentionally or unintentionally for something. I got the feeling they felt safe to vent to me and took the chance to do so. None of this is to say the US doesn't have its own issues with authoritarianism and repressive cultural norms. Seems like a pretty global thing right now actually.
  - notahacker 4y ago
    I think one also has to be wary about conflating fear of the government and fear of reaction from their family in a socially conservative society (and Singapore is, whilst certainly less conservative than much of Asia and rarely overt in its homophobia like large minorities in much of the West, a country where more than half the population disapprove of homosexuality). I certainly heard no shortage of worries about outing from people growing up in certain parts of the USA. The Singaporean government's position is illiberal and weirdly contorted on homosexuality (the longstanding and repeatedly reaffirmed policy has been don't remove or enforce the old colonial ban on it, and permit pride events in specific areas) but ironically the reason it hasn't liberalised it yet is because it's afraid of public backlash rather than out of desire to impose behavioural rules on the population.

deltree7 4y ago

Singapore's criticism will always come from 'White Educated Liberals'. If you are earning a comfortable 6 figure salary in a developed nation, living in an extremely safe neighborhood with access to great education and healthcare, you kind assume all those things are easy and the only thing that matters is food/music diversity and counter-culture. For the rest of 7,950,000,000 people on earth, any country that provides safety, basic food, health, decent education is a heaven and wouldn't mind if their own country is like Singapore

DubiousPusher 4y ago
I don't think this is a fair observation. I grew up in poverty in the U.S. and even in those days I found the stories of Singapore's authoritarian oppression disturbing. Would I have traded my chilly and mouldering aluminum sides trailer for a clean Singaporean public works apartment and a jackboot hovering around my ass? I'm not sure I would. Now, I'm not sure it was as bad as the stories made it sound. Let's be real. Some amount of what we heard was sensationalized for storytelling effect but don't completely discount that people will forgo material comforts for dignity, honor and autonomy.
- licebmi__at__ 4y ago
  Not trying to diminish your experience, but you might want to put in balance that a lot of people in the south of US actually risk their lives crossing the border for a chance of living in US poverty.
  - DubiousPusher 4y ago
    Yeah to be very clear, poverty in the U.S. is better than poverty a lot of places. I'm sure there are levels of poverty where one would accept basically any draconian measure if it meant eating on the regular. But that's not the point I was pushing back on. It was this > For the rest of 7,950,000,000 people on earth, any country that provides safety, basic food, health, decent education is a heaven and wouldn't mind if their own country is like Singapore
4y ago

projectazorian 4y ago

> I can't help but think there's an underlying prejudice in the way he and others think countries should develop, where as they get richer they should be more like rich countries he's used to (ironically enough, the problem for many seems to be that Singapore _isn't_ the same as the other developed nations they're used to). Gibson didn't look hard enough; there was definitely counterculture in Singapore at the time he wrote the story. A bit lazy on his part, but he's not a trained journalist. And there still is one now, although much less so than in the 90s. The vibe I got from my time there is that most Singaporeans who are counterculture-inclined just leave for larger countries, in the same way a bohemian-inclined Swiss person might move to, say, New York or Berlin. The larger problem Singapore has is that there's very little space for the arts in general, let alone counterculture.

8bitsrule 4y ago
I've personally noticed that multiple US cities have (conveniently?) removed 'room for the arts'/counterculture slowly and almost imperceptibly since the 1980s. Easily-affordable housing (for creatives and low-income students) and storefronts (for their works, performances, and socializing) have been (carelessly? carefully?) shoved aside for more gentrified concerns. Individualized 'cafes' have been 'Starbucked'. The 'unifying conformancy' is never matched by unified rights or incomes. Non-journalist Gibson smelled the 'trend' early. It is also visible in videos which wander 'developed' world city streets. Space for inscrutable (nothing to say) welded sculptures/'child-like' murals always seems to be found. And space for 'approved' historic cultures. But not for an underground press, nor for non-violent protest, nor for authentic graffiti. Not nearly as total, then, but somewhat like North Korea, the land of identical choices. Edit: "Through the policing of all these scales, moral geographies contribute to the construction of desired "Singaporean" identities." ( Singapore Lily on "Music and moral geographies: Constructions of "nation" and identity in Singapore" [https://www.jstor.org/stable/41148026 https://www.jstor.org/stable/41148026])