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It didn't help that German politicians intentionally tied themselves to Russian gas in a foolish bid to try and pull Russia westward and to avoid having to rely

by ch4s3 4y ago

It didn't help that German politicians intentionally tied themselves to Russian gas in a foolish bid to try and pull Russia westward and to avoid having to rely further on the US for energy. It's also worth noting that a number of German politicians either went to work for Gazprom or were in the case of many Greens funded by Russia. Germany really fucked up.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> didn't help that German politicians intentionally tied themselves to Russian gas in a foolish bid to try and pull Russia westward and to avoid having to rely further on the US for energy Would note that America made the same mistake with China and the WTO in the 1990s.
- ch4s3 4y ago
  I mostly agree, but China already had received MFN status on a provisional basis in 1980 and was until ~1994 a net importer of American goods. The move towards adding the to the WTO was at the time considered the least bad option for how to proceed. No one anticipated Xi in 1990, but everyone knew and understood Putin by the time Nord Stream I was completed.
hef19898 4y ago
This myth rwally dies hard, doesn't it? The USSR supplied gas to Germany and Europe reliably since the 60s and all the way through the end of the cold war. Back then the Green party didn't even exist. The goal of buying gas from Russia was, besides Russia being a very reliable supplier (until recently), to get cheap gas and have a channel of communication and common interests with the "enemy" open. It worked until Ukraine and Putin's one way trip into crazy land. Schröder got a ton of flak for his proximity to Putin and his positions at Gazprom. Also, he wasn't chancellor for almost 20 years anymore when the war in Ukraine started. And back then having close ties to Russia was good idea actually. Also as a European, less reliance on the US is a good thing. As would be less reliance on Saudi Arabia, replacing one human rights ignoring autocrat waging offebsive wars abroad with another doesn't sound right (both of them share the same opinion about journalists as well it seems).
- ch4s3 4y ago
  Gazprom directly funded the Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania Climate and Environmental Protection Foundation[1], for example. Here's an example from 2014 of Russia funding greens in the EU to undermine shale oil to maintain dependence on Russian gas[2]. It's also generally accepted that Russian interests funded the US green presidential candidate Jill Stein (though it's a little murky). > to get cheap gas and have a channel of communication and common interests with the "enemy" open. Yeas, I'm familiar with the legacy of Ostpolitik after the fall of the USSR and reunification. > And back then having close ties to Russia was good idea actually I'm specifically claiming that it probably was not a good idea in retrospect, and concerning what was known then about Putin. > Also as a European, less reliance on the US is a good thing. I can understand why you would feel that way and I have no love for KSA, but clearly reliance on Russia has been a mistake. [1] https://www.transparency.org/en/press/germany-state-government-conceals-gazprom-connection-controversial-environmental-foundation-beneficial-ownership https://www.transparency.org/en/press/germany-state-governme... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-secretly-working-with-environmentalists-to-oppose-fracking https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-s...
- tjansen 4y ago
  > Also as a European, less reliance on the US is a good thing. Maybe, but now we rely on Russia even more than we rely on the US. That's certainly not a good outcome.
thriftwy 4y ago
I don't remember any attempt to pull Russia westwards. Did Russia had visa waiver with the EU? What kind of real integration was there? Instead there was a 20 year long streak of trying to pull Russia's neighbours westwards and away from Russia, at the same time Russia being told that it needs not apply.

by ch4s3 4y ago

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> didn't help that German politicians intentionally tied themselves to Russian gas in a foolish bid to try and pull Russia westward and to avoid having to rely further on the US for energy Would note that America made the same mistake with China and the WTO in the 1990s.

ch4s3 4y ago
I mostly agree, but China already had received MFN status on a provisional basis in 1980 and was until ~1994 a net importer of American goods. The move towards adding the to the WTO was at the time considered the least bad option for how to proceed. No one anticipated Xi in 1990, but everyone knew and understood Putin by the time Nord Stream I was completed.

hef19898 4y ago

This myth rwally dies hard, doesn't it? The USSR supplied gas to Germany and Europe reliably since the 60s and all the way through the end of the cold war. Back then the Green party didn't even exist. The goal of buying gas from Russia was, besides Russia being a very reliable supplier (until recently), to get cheap gas and have a channel of communication and common interests with the "enemy" open. It worked until Ukraine and Putin's one way trip into crazy land. Schröder got a ton of flak for his proximity to Putin and his positions at Gazprom. Also, he wasn't chancellor for almost 20 years anymore when the war in Ukraine started. And back then having close ties to Russia was good idea actually. Also as a European, less reliance on the US is a good thing. As would be less reliance on Saudi Arabia, replacing one human rights ignoring autocrat waging offebsive wars abroad with another doesn't sound right (both of them share the same opinion about journalists as well it seems).

ch4s3 4y ago
Gazprom directly funded the Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania Climate and Environmental Protection Foundation[1], for example. Here's an example from 2014 of Russia funding greens in the EU to undermine shale oil to maintain dependence on Russian gas[2]. It's also generally accepted that Russian interests funded the US green presidential candidate Jill Stein (though it's a little murky). > to get cheap gas and have a channel of communication and common interests with the "enemy" open. Yeas, I'm familiar with the legacy of Ostpolitik after the fall of the USSR and reunification. > And back then having close ties to Russia was good idea actually I'm specifically claiming that it probably was not a good idea in retrospect, and concerning what was known then about Putin. > Also as a European, less reliance on the US is a good thing. I can understand why you would feel that way and I have no love for KSA, but clearly reliance on Russia has been a mistake. [1] https://www.transparency.org/en/press/germany-state-government-conceals-gazprom-connection-controversial-environmental-foundation-beneficial-ownership https://www.transparency.org/en/press/germany-state-governme... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-secretly-working-with-environmentalists-to-oppose-fracking https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/19/russia-s...
tjansen 4y ago
> Also as a European, less reliance on the US is a good thing. Maybe, but now we rely on Russia even more than we rely on the US. That's certainly not a good outcome.

thriftwy 4y ago

I don't remember any attempt to pull Russia westwards. Did Russia had visa waiver with the EU? What kind of real integration was there? Instead there was a 20 year long streak of trying to pull Russia's neighbours westwards and away from Russia, at the same time Russia being told that it needs not apply.