7 ms·

It's taboo to criticise such movements because by extension you criticise those that actually have the illness. And some movements have grown quite powerful pol

It's taboo to criticise such movements because by extension you criticise those that actually have the illness. And some movements have grown quite powerful politically. If you allude that it's problematic to let children change sex, you are painted as anti lgbtixxxx. Activism has won against science.

JediLuke 4y ago
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  Men cry in the office too, but they're better at hiding it because the social expectations are different. A few times during crunches I've heard men sobbing in the restroom instead of at their desk. Men get told to 'man up', so they bottle it up or hide it.
  - collegeburner 4y ago
    counterpoint: no. i been in some pretty stressful environments and never reacted like that. same for most guys i know. maybe it's different where you are but i never seen it even in private like that or with close friends.
    - addicted 4y ago
      Unless you were raised in a forest, you’re also a product of the same environment, that tells boys and men since they are little that they shouldn’t cry.
    - qzx_pierri 4y ago
      Men commit suicide 3.8x more than women[1] due to cavalier attitudes such as yours about the mental struggles men face. I'm not saying you're a "part of the problem", I'm just saying you could really benefit from admitting to yourself that yes, men do cry. Yes, men do feel the same emotions as women. Yes, men do have to hold it in for fear of being labeled a "pussy" or be seen as "crying like a little bitch". 1: https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/ https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/
      - ModernMech 4y ago
        This is a little misleading. Men attempt suicide with more reliably lethal methods like firearms, whereas women attempt suicide using more unreliably lethal methods like overdosing on medication [1]. In fact, according to your link, women attempt suicide at a rate of 1.8x that of men [2]. [1]: https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508 https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-m... [2]: https://www.datocms-assets.com/12810/1649682186-14296_afsp_2022_national_fact_sheet_update_m1_v4.pdf https://www.datocms-assets.com/12810/1649682186-14296_afsp_2...
        deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
        Banana699 4y ago
        >Men attempt suicide with more reliably lethal methods like firearms And succeed ~4x times as much. In other words, GP is correct and you just needed to scratch an itch to nitpick.
        ModernMech 4y ago
        The claim was that the number was due to cavalier attitudes, which is unsupported. I think the added context is important. Maybe you don’t, but others might. The drastic 3.8x number is more a function of the mode of suicide rather than cavalier attitudes, as far as I see it.
    - naravara 4y ago
      I don't know if "They're better at hiding it" is sufficiently negated by responding with "I've never seen it." Also crying isn't the only form of emotional breakdown. It can also get sublimated into rage which manifests as screaming at subordinates, punching walls, road rage incidents, and domestic violence. And it also sublimates into depression, which can manifest as substance abuse disorders and self-harm. I think the OP claim that women are incapable of handling the same workplace pressures as men are is eliding a lot of information.
    - dylan604 4y ago
      lots of men do the opposite of crying by reacting with some sort of anger/rage in whatever public outbursts (verbal or physical). I present my younger self as exhibit A to verbal stupidity and admit guilt to all charges in this manner. It wasn't until maybe 10ish years ago that I got tired of just being angry at everything. Maybe I could have gotten there sooner with professional counseling, but that wasn't the manly thing to do. The stigma of men seeking therapy is something that can only improve. Just don't know how to do it other than speaking positively about it at appropriate times
      - ksdale 4y ago
        This. Patriarchy sort of collectively defines the "emotion" out of the ways that men act out. When women cry, they're being emotional, when men get angry, it's a rational response to people acting the wrong way. (Not to mention the fact that the idea of being "emotional" is itself, considered bad somehow!) When you start to notice the ways that men act out emotionally for what they are, it becomes apparent that men are easily as emotional as women (I'd argue much more so), it just manifests in ways that society has deemed manly.
        jkeddo 4y ago
        This is the most insightful comment I've read in weeks and I've never thought of things this way before. This changes the way I look at people. Men and women are just as emotional: The main difference is that men are shamed for being sad/crying, so our emotions end up manifesting as anger instead. Men get angry because they aren't allowed to cry.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- kaikai 4y ago
  If women yelled and threw their weight around in the office as much as men they’d be fired immediately. Being emotional isn’t a woman thing, we just react differently to string emotion from men than women.
- fsociety 4y ago
  This is an uninformed and sexist viewpoint of differences between men and women. Women cry more.. men bottle it up and let it out as a form of aggression usually to people who are no the source of stress. Ask yourself why are men the ones committing mass shootings and not women? There is probably a large mental health gap that needs to be addressed, and the resistance to getting therapy or being in touch with feelings has to do with this “men don’t cry” BS.
  - peoplefromibiza 4y ago
    > Ask yourself why are men the ones committing mass shootings and not women? 1 reason: testosterone it promotes aggressive and risky behavior I agree that sexism is a problem and should be addressed properly, but the untold truth is that mass shootings are the cultural product of a violent society. while the real issue, IMO, is that Globally, death by suicide occur about 1.8 times more often among males than among females The bottom line is most men (especially young men, suicide is one of the primary - if not the most common - cause of death for teenagers all around the World) prefer to kill themselves than kill someone else. Also men make up almost 80 per cent of all homicide victims recorded worldwide. They are also globally much more involved in protecting other people from life threatening situations. That's something we should actually focus on, IMO, instead of the derogatory "boys being boys".
- dang 4y ago
  > women are not as capable as men at life. I don't know if it's "impolite" but I do know that you can't troll HN like this. We've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
DSingularity 4y ago
Not everywhere. Common sense prevails in many parts of the world.
alphabettsy 4y ago
- DiggyJohnson 4y ago
  I think that must be an exaggeration, and a dangerous one at that.
- MichaelCollins 4y ago
  - opheliate 4y ago
    You're moving the goalposts to a separate issue: The post you're reply to was specifically talking about children receiving medical treatment to address gender dysphoria, not the possibility of a child experiencing gender dysphoria in general. If a teacher feels a child could be unsafe if they expressed they were trans to their family, they might encourage them not to tell them. But the teacher would not have input on any medical decision, that's up to families and healthcare providers.
    - implements 4y ago
      The issue is what causes a child to experience gender dysphoria (or more accurately what causes a child to believe that their distress at their own body is genuine gender dysphoria rather than a symptom conversion from another psychological issue)? And then there’s the issue that holding that objective gender exists and is innate in the same way biological sex does is a philosophical / ideological position - other positions exist. My generation (late X) were taught to see people as unique individuals differentiated by sex only for the purposes of reproductive role - that people are born ‘gendered’ is a complete anathema - society should not be in the business of assigning acceptable appearances, behaviours and attitudes to individuals based on their sex, or worse, surgically modifying people such that their apparent sex matches their gender. (Clarification - surgery is of-course fine as the cure for untreatable gender dysphoria, and in adults as a free choice. My objection is to the belief in appropriate gender norms and appearances as being the correct ordering of individuals in society - I’d rather see a girl with masculine interests remaining comfortable with her female body, rather than asked to question her ‘gender identity’).
jquery 4y ago
It was never taboo to criticize pro-ana groups. Being lgbt isn’t a mental illness. Not medically speaking, anyway. Maybe they were considered such in the past. Go far enough back and we used bloodletting as a common treatment, our understanding generally improves with time. I have no desire to go back to an era where lgbt people were persecuted. With respect to your other point. “Children” is a broad category. Pre-pubescents are not “changing sex”. Instead we are being encouraged to respect their gender identity, and not reject gender-non conforming behaviors [1]. Teens may take puberty blockers to buy time, this also isn’t “changing sex”. Perhaps HRT is what you mean by changing sex, and yes some teenagers are able to access the HRT of their preferred gender. The science on this is pretty clear, that suicide rates of trans people is drastically lowered when in a gender-supportive environment, and their mental well-being is infinitely better. [1] I implore you to watch this video: https://youtu.be/h60YLGDJ6n0 https://youtu.be/h60YLGDJ6n0 Edit: despite what a child comment I cannot reply to is saying, while over-medicalization and misdiagnosis is definitely something to watch out for (being gender-nonconforming is not the same as being trans and this is why education about lgbt issues is important), the vast majority of transgender youth do not suffer from an overabundance of societal and medical acceptance for their issues. Puberty blockers are indeed not a drug to prescribe lightly. Same with SRS, it should not be handed out like candy. People who have only had gender dysphoria for a short time may indeed be better served by a “wait and see” approach. All of these things I can agree with. If you are under the impression that being trans isn’t stigmatized enough and all the kids might turn trans if we aren’t careful, I’m simply going to disagree with you. There’s no evidence of this.
- deepdriver 4y ago
  - Dobbs 4y ago
    - deepdriver 4y ago
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
It's intellectually dishonest to criticize such movements because the vast majority of criticism is coming from people who have never done a lick of study in the fields attempting to diagnose these conditions. Also, apparently it never occurred to people that Google is one of the reasons that more people are getting diagnosed now. Before, people just treated you as weird and allowed you to languish in your own personal little hell. Seeking help at all was seen as a sign of moral weakness. At least now people can go to a doctor and actually get tested for a condition that you recognize having.
jayd16 4y ago
>Activism has won against science. What are you trying to say here? Problematic isn't a scientific quantity but maybe you're throwing this in from some other context? Personally, these days I see people of all walks invoking science when they just mean "my own common sense."
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mensetmanusman 4y ago
It’s more that the word science has been redefined. People confuse their own preference with science. Also, because preference is political, what to research and what science is focused on is a political question.
2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago
By extension it calls into question the whole surge of gender identity issues. Or at least there is a fear that it will. Better to give a wide berth to these issues.

JediLuke 4y ago

MichaelCollins 4y ago
Men cry in the office too, but they're better at hiding it because the social expectations are different. A few times during crunches I've heard men sobbing in the restroom instead of at their desk. Men get told to 'man up', so they bottle it up or hide it.
- collegeburner 4y ago
  counterpoint: no. i been in some pretty stressful environments and never reacted like that. same for most guys i know. maybe it's different where you are but i never seen it even in private like that or with close friends.
  - addicted 4y ago
    Unless you were raised in a forest, you’re also a product of the same environment, that tells boys and men since they are little that they shouldn’t cry.
  - qzx_pierri 4y ago
    Men commit suicide 3.8x more than women[1] due to cavalier attitudes such as yours about the mental struggles men face. I'm not saying you're a "part of the problem", I'm just saying you could really benefit from admitting to yourself that yes, men do cry. Yes, men do feel the same emotions as women. Yes, men do have to hold it in for fear of being labeled a "pussy" or be seen as "crying like a little bitch". 1: https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/ https://afsp.org/suicide-statistics/
    - ModernMech 4y ago
      This is a little misleading. Men attempt suicide with more reliably lethal methods like firearms, whereas women attempt suicide using more unreliably lethal methods like overdosing on medication [1]. In fact, according to your link, women attempt suicide at a rate of 1.8x that of men [2]. [1]: https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508 https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-m... [2]: https://www.datocms-assets.com/12810/1649682186-14296_afsp_2022_national_fact_sheet_update_m1_v4.pdf https://www.datocms-assets.com/12810/1649682186-14296_afsp_2...
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - Banana699 4y ago
        >Men attempt suicide with more reliably lethal methods like firearms And succeed ~4x times as much. In other words, GP is correct and you just needed to scratch an itch to nitpick.
        ModernMech 4y ago
        The claim was that the number was due to cavalier attitudes, which is unsupported. I think the added context is important. Maybe you don’t, but others might. The drastic 3.8x number is more a function of the mode of suicide rather than cavalier attitudes, as far as I see it.
  - naravara 4y ago
    I don't know if "They're better at hiding it" is sufficiently negated by responding with "I've never seen it." Also crying isn't the only form of emotional breakdown. It can also get sublimated into rage which manifests as screaming at subordinates, punching walls, road rage incidents, and domestic violence. And it also sublimates into depression, which can manifest as substance abuse disorders and self-harm. I think the OP claim that women are incapable of handling the same workplace pressures as men are is eliding a lot of information.
  - dylan604 4y ago
    lots of men do the opposite of crying by reacting with some sort of anger/rage in whatever public outbursts (verbal or physical). I present my younger self as exhibit A to verbal stupidity and admit guilt to all charges in this manner. It wasn't until maybe 10ish years ago that I got tired of just being angry at everything. Maybe I could have gotten there sooner with professional counseling, but that wasn't the manly thing to do. The stigma of men seeking therapy is something that can only improve. Just don't know how to do it other than speaking positively about it at appropriate times
    - ksdale 4y ago
      This. Patriarchy sort of collectively defines the "emotion" out of the ways that men act out. When women cry, they're being emotional, when men get angry, it's a rational response to people acting the wrong way. (Not to mention the fact that the idea of being "emotional" is itself, considered bad somehow!) When you start to notice the ways that men act out emotionally for what they are, it becomes apparent that men are easily as emotional as women (I'd argue much more so), it just manifests in ways that society has deemed manly.
      - jkeddo 4y ago
        This is the most insightful comment I've read in weeks and I've never thought of things this way before. This changes the way I look at people. Men and women are just as emotional: The main difference is that men are shamed for being sad/crying, so our emotions end up manifesting as anger instead. Men get angry because they aren't allowed to cry.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
kaikai 4y ago
If women yelled and threw their weight around in the office as much as men they’d be fired immediately. Being emotional isn’t a woman thing, we just react differently to string emotion from men than women.
fsociety 4y ago
This is an uninformed and sexist viewpoint of differences between men and women. Women cry more.. men bottle it up and let it out as a form of aggression usually to people who are no the source of stress. Ask yourself why are men the ones committing mass shootings and not women? There is probably a large mental health gap that needs to be addressed, and the resistance to getting therapy or being in touch with feelings has to do with this “men don’t cry” BS.
- peoplefromibiza 4y ago
  > Ask yourself why are men the ones committing mass shootings and not women? 1 reason: testosterone it promotes aggressive and risky behavior I agree that sexism is a problem and should be addressed properly, but the untold truth is that mass shootings are the cultural product of a violent society. while the real issue, IMO, is that Globally, death by suicide occur about 1.8 times more often among males than among females The bottom line is most men (especially young men, suicide is one of the primary - if not the most common - cause of death for teenagers all around the World) prefer to kill themselves than kill someone else. Also men make up almost 80 per cent of all homicide victims recorded worldwide. They are also globally much more involved in protecting other people from life threatening situations. That's something we should actually focus on, IMO, instead of the derogatory "boys being boys".
dang 4y ago
> women are not as capable as men at life. I don't know if it's "impolite" but I do know that you can't troll HN like this. We've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

DSingularity 4y ago

Not everywhere. Common sense prevails in many parts of the world.

alphabettsy 4y ago

DiggyJohnson 4y ago
I think that must be an exaggeration, and a dangerous one at that.
MichaelCollins 4y ago
- opheliate 4y ago
  You're moving the goalposts to a separate issue: The post you're reply to was specifically talking about children receiving medical treatment to address gender dysphoria, not the possibility of a child experiencing gender dysphoria in general. If a teacher feels a child could be unsafe if they expressed they were trans to their family, they might encourage them not to tell them. But the teacher would not have input on any medical decision, that's up to families and healthcare providers.
  - implements 4y ago
    The issue is what causes a child to experience gender dysphoria (or more accurately what causes a child to believe that their distress at their own body is genuine gender dysphoria rather than a symptom conversion from another psychological issue)? And then there’s the issue that holding that objective gender exists and is innate in the same way biological sex does is a philosophical / ideological position - other positions exist. My generation (late X) were taught to see people as unique individuals differentiated by sex only for the purposes of reproductive role - that people are born ‘gendered’ is a complete anathema - society should not be in the business of assigning acceptable appearances, behaviours and attitudes to individuals based on their sex, or worse, surgically modifying people such that their apparent sex matches their gender. (Clarification - surgery is of-course fine as the cure for untreatable gender dysphoria, and in adults as a free choice. My objection is to the belief in appropriate gender norms and appearances as being the correct ordering of individuals in society - I’d rather see a girl with masculine interests remaining comfortable with her female body, rather than asked to question her ‘gender identity’).

jquery 4y ago

It was never taboo to criticize pro-ana groups. Being lgbt isn’t a mental illness. Not medically speaking, anyway. Maybe they were considered such in the past. Go far enough back and we used bloodletting as a common treatment, our understanding generally improves with time. I have no desire to go back to an era where lgbt people were persecuted. With respect to your other point. “Children” is a broad category. Pre-pubescents are not “changing sex”. Instead we are being encouraged to respect their gender identity, and not reject gender-non conforming behaviors [1]. Teens may take puberty blockers to buy time, this also isn’t “changing sex”. Perhaps HRT is what you mean by changing sex, and yes some teenagers are able to access the HRT of their preferred gender. The science on this is pretty clear, that suicide rates of trans people is drastically lowered when in a gender-supportive environment, and their mental well-being is infinitely better. [1] I implore you to watch this video: https://youtu.be/h60YLGDJ6n0 https://youtu.be/h60YLGDJ6n0 Edit: despite what a child comment I cannot reply to is saying, while over-medicalization and misdiagnosis is definitely something to watch out for (being gender-nonconforming is not the same as being trans and this is why education about lgbt issues is important), the vast majority of transgender youth do not suffer from an overabundance of societal and medical acceptance for their issues. Puberty blockers are indeed not a drug to prescribe lightly. Same with SRS, it should not be handed out like candy. People who have only had gender dysphoria for a short time may indeed be better served by a “wait and see” approach. All of these things I can agree with. If you are under the impression that being trans isn’t stigmatized enough and all the kids might turn trans if we aren’t careful, I’m simply going to disagree with you. There’s no evidence of this.

deepdriver 4y ago
- Dobbs 4y ago
  - deepdriver 4y ago

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

It's intellectually dishonest to criticize such movements because the vast majority of criticism is coming from people who have never done a lick of study in the fields attempting to diagnose these conditions. Also, apparently it never occurred to people that Google is one of the reasons that more people are getting diagnosed now. Before, people just treated you as weird and allowed you to languish in your own personal little hell. Seeking help at all was seen as a sign of moral weakness. At least now people can go to a doctor and actually get tested for a condition that you recognize having.

jayd16 4y ago

>Activism has won against science. What are you trying to say here? Problematic isn't a scientific quantity but maybe you're throwing this in from some other context? Personally, these days I see people of all walks invoking science when they just mean "my own common sense."

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

mensetmanusman 4y ago

It’s more that the word science has been redefined. People confuse their own preference with science. Also, because preference is political, what to research and what science is focused on is a political question.

2OEH8eoCRo0 4y ago

By extension it calls into question the whole surge of gender identity issues. Or at least there is a fear that it will. Better to give a wide berth to these issues.