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Young people on the internet have been doing this since at least the 90s, though it's definitely become more popular (mainly due to internet culture spreading t

Young people on the internet have been doing this since at least the 90s, though it's definitely become more popular (mainly due to internet culture spreading to normal society). Just think back to the LiveJournal/MySpace era - it was the same exact thing back then. All the kids that I knew who did this have grown up to be completely normal adults.

NamTaf 4y ago
The difference is that hyperpowerful social media algorithms have weaponised it. Kids in the 90s had to actively seek out whatever propaganda or whatnot that they wanted to read about. If you were a pissed-off goth kid wanting to read how to bomb something, you had to genuinely work to find shit like that. These days, you linger on an auto-playing video too long (that is quite possibly intentionally engineered to bait you in) and suddenly the algorithm gets a lock on you and absolutely rams more of that shit down your throat. It's not even just propaganda either. The exact same cycle is what's at play here with preying on children's weaknesses. Mental health, body image, etc. etc. can all be weaponised the same way. And kids are espeically susceptable to it given the age they tend to start getting on social media is precisely also the age where they feel most socially awkward and trying to find their identity in the world.
- PheonixPharts 4y ago
  > If you were a pissed-off goth kid wanting to read how to bomb something, you had to genuinely work to find shit like that. Every pissed off goth kid I knew in the 90s had a copy of the Anarchist cook book on a 1.44mb floppy disk. We probably burned more than our fair share of holes in our backyards, but it wasn't access to information that was limiting us doing harm to our peers. If anything I think it was having a group of like-minded people to burn holes in your backyard with that ultimately allowed us all to feel less alienated. We may have felt individually ostracized, but found camaraderie in trying to put out the homemade napalm fire in the back yard before someone's parents got back or the neighbors called the fire department. I get more worried about teens today because I no longer see packs of kids getting in trouble together. The only kids I know that ended up in real trouble where the ones that eventually got alienated from that pack as well.
  - NamTaf 4y ago
    Sure, but my point is that you had to actively go out and find it. You didn't get an in-lined feed of social media 'suggested posts' that gradually took you from being angry at the machine to some radicalised position. My broader point is that you can replace that scenario with just about any subgroup with an extremist representation and it holds. Incels are a prime example. QAnon too. The list goes on. The people who end up extreme in those viewpoints don't start there, they get taken on a journey to there though lots of very marginal successive influences. A social media algorithm is purpose-built to achieve that because it turns out that is the exact same pattern as 'you hovered over a cute cat video once, so we guess you like cats, so we're going tto bombard you with cute cat vids to drive up your engagement'.
    - PheonixPharts 4y ago
      I think another part of the problem is that that social media feed is ultimately still alienating. There's a world of difference between bonding with friend over how stupid and mean other kids are, blowing up your back yard together and laughing about it that night and the tiktok world of just getting angry over a constant stream of other alienated people screaming into the void. Without the companionship you never really get catharsis, just an endless cycle of building up rage and furthering your own sense of alienation.
    - thrown_22 4y ago
      >Sure, but my point is that you had to actively go out and find it. You didn't get an in-lined feed of social media 'suggested posts' that gradually took you from being angry at the machine to some radicalised position. That used to be called talking to friends. If anything social media is less dangerous because the _really_ illegal stuff is not something they can show. Clockwork Orange, the Destructors and Kids were a lot less fiction than people would like to believe today.
  - com2kid 4y ago
    > I get more worried about teens today because I no longer see packs of kids getting in trouble together. The only kids I know that ended up in real trouble where the ones that eventually got alienated from that pack as well. Spending time physically around other people fires off a lot of nice neurotransmitters, even for people who are introverted and who would rather not be spending a lot of time around other people. One figures COVID lock downs would have hammered this point into the global consciousness. Of course too isolated of a group and things get super weird and everything can quickly go off the rails.
daptaq 4y ago
There is a comment like this any time TikTok comes up, but I find it hard to believe that (to exaggerate) everything has and will always be the same. Doesn't the fact that being on a personal phone that children have access to most of the time distinguish newer social networks (Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok) from it's predecessors. Doesn't the availability of better network connections allow for more easily addictive media have any influence? And let's not forget the ability to optimise the feed to exactly the stimuli that a user picks up on? TikTok is different, and that has nothing to do with China or whatever other cultural/political topic. It is the amalgamation that results many years of optimising user interaction and dependence on social networks as an advertising platform. While in some aspects it is just a repackaged version of what has been there before, we shouldn't just dismiss the previous attempts as harmless, just because their dosage was less.
- elefantastisch 4y ago
  I think there's a fallacy underlying this that if the warning is the same, the threat must be the same. Yes, people have been saying "beware the influence of technology on children" for decades, maybe centuries. That doesn't prove that the warnings are false. And even if the past warnings were false for past technology, that doesn't prove that the current warnings are false for current technology. "People have been saying that forever" is not a rebuttal of "TikTok is bad for kids". It's not even close. It's basically DH2 on Paul Graham's disagreement hierarchy: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html
pwython 4y ago
Definitely not the same exact thing. There were not nearly as many "influencers" that have a degree in Google pitching mental health seminars. MySpace didn't have an endless addictive feed, it was literally just a modern address book to chat with your group of friends and perhaps follow your favorite band. Their business model relied on traditional desktop display ads (header/sidebar/footer), as mobile web wasn't even around back then.
lubesGordi 4y ago
Thats like comparing crack to St Johns Wort.
walthamstow 4y ago
I was also a MySpace-era kid (15yo in 2006) and I really don't think there's any comparison to today's algo-driven infinite feed.
aahortwwy 4y ago
> All the kids that I knew who did this have grown up to be completely normal adults. Some kids did this and didn't grow up, because someone in their online community committed suicide and that prompted them to do the same. This is a real problem. It's been a problem since the 90s, yes, but it's getting worse.

NamTaf 4y ago

The difference is that hyperpowerful social media algorithms have weaponised it. Kids in the 90s had to actively seek out whatever propaganda or whatnot that they wanted to read about. If you were a pissed-off goth kid wanting to read how to bomb something, you had to genuinely work to find shit like that. These days, you linger on an auto-playing video too long (that is quite possibly intentionally engineered to bait you in) and suddenly the algorithm gets a lock on you and absolutely rams more of that shit down your throat. It's not even just propaganda either. The exact same cycle is what's at play here with preying on children's weaknesses. Mental health, body image, etc. etc. can all be weaponised the same way. And kids are espeically susceptable to it given the age they tend to start getting on social media is precisely also the age where they feel most socially awkward and trying to find their identity in the world.

PheonixPharts 4y ago
> If you were a pissed-off goth kid wanting to read how to bomb something, you had to genuinely work to find shit like that. Every pissed off goth kid I knew in the 90s had a copy of the Anarchist cook book on a 1.44mb floppy disk. We probably burned more than our fair share of holes in our backyards, but it wasn't access to information that was limiting us doing harm to our peers. If anything I think it was having a group of like-minded people to burn holes in your backyard with that ultimately allowed us all to feel less alienated. We may have felt individually ostracized, but found camaraderie in trying to put out the homemade napalm fire in the back yard before someone's parents got back or the neighbors called the fire department. I get more worried about teens today because I no longer see packs of kids getting in trouble together. The only kids I know that ended up in real trouble where the ones that eventually got alienated from that pack as well.
- NamTaf 4y ago
  Sure, but my point is that you had to actively go out and find it. You didn't get an in-lined feed of social media 'suggested posts' that gradually took you from being angry at the machine to some radicalised position. My broader point is that you can replace that scenario with just about any subgroup with an extremist representation and it holds. Incels are a prime example. QAnon too. The list goes on. The people who end up extreme in those viewpoints don't start there, they get taken on a journey to there though lots of very marginal successive influences. A social media algorithm is purpose-built to achieve that because it turns out that is the exact same pattern as 'you hovered over a cute cat video once, so we guess you like cats, so we're going tto bombard you with cute cat vids to drive up your engagement'.
  - PheonixPharts 4y ago
    I think another part of the problem is that that social media feed is ultimately still alienating. There's a world of difference between bonding with friend over how stupid and mean other kids are, blowing up your back yard together and laughing about it that night and the tiktok world of just getting angry over a constant stream of other alienated people screaming into the void. Without the companionship you never really get catharsis, just an endless cycle of building up rage and furthering your own sense of alienation.
  - thrown_22 4y ago
    >Sure, but my point is that you had to actively go out and find it. You didn't get an in-lined feed of social media 'suggested posts' that gradually took you from being angry at the machine to some radicalised position. That used to be called talking to friends. If anything social media is less dangerous because the _really_ illegal stuff is not something they can show. Clockwork Orange, the Destructors and Kids were a lot less fiction than people would like to believe today.
- com2kid 4y ago
  > I get more worried about teens today because I no longer see packs of kids getting in trouble together. The only kids I know that ended up in real trouble where the ones that eventually got alienated from that pack as well. Spending time physically around other people fires off a lot of nice neurotransmitters, even for people who are introverted and who would rather not be spending a lot of time around other people. One figures COVID lock downs would have hammered this point into the global consciousness. Of course too isolated of a group and things get super weird and everything can quickly go off the rails.

daptaq 4y ago

There is a comment like this any time TikTok comes up, but I find it hard to believe that (to exaggerate) everything has and will always be the same. Doesn't the fact that being on a personal phone that children have access to most of the time distinguish newer social networks (Instagram, Snapchat, TikTok) from it's predecessors. Doesn't the availability of better network connections allow for more easily addictive media have any influence? And let's not forget the ability to optimise the feed to exactly the stimuli that a user picks up on? TikTok is different, and that has nothing to do with China or whatever other cultural/political topic. It is the amalgamation that results many years of optimising user interaction and dependence on social networks as an advertising platform. While in some aspects it is just a repackaged version of what has been there before, we shouldn't just dismiss the previous attempts as harmless, just because their dosage was less.

elefantastisch 4y ago
I think there's a fallacy underlying this that if the warning is the same, the threat must be the same. Yes, people have been saying "beware the influence of technology on children" for decades, maybe centuries. That doesn't prove that the warnings are false. And even if the past warnings were false for past technology, that doesn't prove that the current warnings are false for current technology. "People have been saying that forever" is not a rebuttal of "TikTok is bad for kids". It's not even close. It's basically DH2 on Paul Graham's disagreement hierarchy: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

pwython 4y ago

Definitely not the same exact thing. There were not nearly as many "influencers" that have a degree in Google pitching mental health seminars. MySpace didn't have an endless addictive feed, it was literally just a modern address book to chat with your group of friends and perhaps follow your favorite band. Their business model relied on traditional desktop display ads (header/sidebar/footer), as mobile web wasn't even around back then.

lubesGordi 4y ago

Thats like comparing crack to St Johns Wort.

walthamstow 4y ago

I was also a MySpace-era kid (15yo in 2006) and I really don't think there's any comparison to today's algo-driven infinite feed.

aahortwwy 4y ago

> All the kids that I knew who did this have grown up to be completely normal adults. Some kids did this and didn't grow up, because someone in their online community committed suicide and that prompted them to do the same. This is a real problem. It's been a problem since the 90s, yes, but it's getting worse.