4 ms·

If Republicans lie 3 times more often then Democrats, then PoltiFact is doing its job accurately.

Clubber 4y ago
Of course, if people are arguing which political party lies more, they are unknowingly confirming that both parties lie regularly and the entire system is corrupt. The "who lies more," is just a way to justify the corruption for one side or the other.
- lkrubner 4y ago
  You are making a big jump from "one politician lied this specific time" to "the whole system is corrupt." The conclusion does not follow from initial incident. Specific cases of specific politicians lying does not suggest that the whole system is corrupt. And that (the lack of systematic implications) remains true, even if politicians from one political party can be shown to lie more often than politicians from other political parties.
  - Clubber 4y ago
    Imagine if it were a person you know, perhaps personally, or a work colleague that lied to you on multiple occasions. Do you tend to trust those people once they've lied? Do you feel comfortable giving them money? Do you feel comfortable giving them power over you? Would you ever say, "Bob lied to me a few times, but he's ok because Fred lies a lot more." It's not a big jump at all, we've just grown so accustomed to it, it feels normal. Because it feels so normal, it's pretty stark evidence of total corruption. To think any differently is really putting your head in the sand, IMO, but I've been following politics for a long time.
    - lkrubner 4y ago
      Again, when a specific person lies, their personal trustworthiness is in doubt, but their lying does not raise systemic issues. Your attempt to generalize is not justified by any particular person lying.
      - Clubber 4y ago
        What percentage of politicians that lie do you feel would trigger suspicion of systemic issues?
        lkrubner 4y ago
        These are two good books on the subject of corruption, I recommend both of them: Corruption and Government: Causes, Consequences https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1107441099/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1107441099/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... The Quest for Good Governance: How Societies Develop Control of Corruption https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1107534577/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1107534577/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... They both suggest that a systemic problem is, simply systemic -- it crosses multiple institutions and it is broadly accepted. One way to judge the completeness of the corruption of the system is to look at what is missing: how many groups are not fighting against corruption. How many groups are bought into the system? Obviously the problem is less systemic in places where powerful institutions are actively fighting against corruption.

Of course, if people are arguing which political party lies more, they are unknowingly confirming that both parties lie regularly and the entire system is corrupt. The "who lies more," is just a way to justify the corruption for one side or the other.

lkrubner 4y ago
You are making a big jump from "one politician lied this specific time" to "the whole system is corrupt." The conclusion does not follow from initial incident. Specific cases of specific politicians lying does not suggest that the whole system is corrupt. And that (the lack of systematic implications) remains true, even if politicians from one political party can be shown to lie more often than politicians from other political parties.
- Clubber 4y ago
  Imagine if it were a person you know, perhaps personally, or a work colleague that lied to you on multiple occasions. Do you tend to trust those people once they've lied? Do you feel comfortable giving them money? Do you feel comfortable giving them power over you? Would you ever say, "Bob lied to me a few times, but he's ok because Fred lies a lot more." It's not a big jump at all, we've just grown so accustomed to it, it feels normal. Because it feels so normal, it's pretty stark evidence of total corruption. To think any differently is really putting your head in the sand, IMO, but I've been following politics for a long time.
  - lkrubner 4y ago
    Again, when a specific person lies, their personal trustworthiness is in doubt, but their lying does not raise systemic issues. Your attempt to generalize is not justified by any particular person lying.
    - Clubber 4y ago
      What percentage of politicians that lie do you feel would trigger suspicion of systemic issues?
      - lkrubner 4y ago
        These are two good books on the subject of corruption, I recommend both of them: Corruption and Government: Causes, Consequences https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1107441099/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1107441099/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... The Quest for Good Governance: How Societies Develop Control of Corruption https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1107534577/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1107534577/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b... They both suggest that a systemic problem is, simply systemic -- it crosses multiple institutions and it is broadly accepted. One way to judge the completeness of the corruption of the system is to look at what is missing: how many groups are not fighting against corruption. How many groups are bought into the system? Obviously the problem is less systemic in places where powerful institutions are actively fighting against corruption.