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In addition to bargaining power, I think programmers are just worse negotiators. Their educations do not prepare them for this. To hack the system — remember yo

In addition to bargaining power, I think programmers are just worse negotiators. Their educations do not prepare them for this. To hack the system — remember you're putting yourself in a wage-slave situation for years, so best to learn this trash — you should extract the highest price/benefits they're capable of paying you. (Maybe it helps to read _Getting to Yes_, or something.) Plus, there's an obvious class component. The further removed you are from working with your hands, the higher value you're perceived to have. (After all, who hires these project managers and business analysts? Managers. Who naturally value themselves more than underlings, and will transfer that value perception to these managers/analysts. This argument was used in Schmidt's _Disciplined Minds_ to explain some of the higher rank theoretical physicists have over experimental physicists and engineers, even if engineers earn more money.)

jonnathanson 15y ago
"The further removed you are from working with your hands, the higher value you're perceived to have." It's that, but it's also (perceived) pedigree. A lot of "business analysts" come from big consultancies like McKinsey, or investment banks like Goldman, et al. Managers and MBA-types have a mystical perception of those firms -- almost as if they trained jedi business knights. The truth may be far from it, at least in my experience. But perception usually trumps truth.
tomkarlo 15y ago
More importantly, from a bargaining power perspective, you have to look at their BATNA - best alternative to a negotiated agreement. A programmer is going to take a bigger pay hit switching to another job type than an MBA'ed project manager. In many cases, a project manager may be making less than they would in a management role of another type (e.g. consulting or finance.) That's going to drive up the minimum wage they'll accept, and drive up the overall price as well. The best way to improve bargaining power is to be willing to walk away at a higher offer.
- calibraxis 15y ago
  Yeah, being willing to walk away for a better offer is the most encouraging thing to have in your pocket. That's worth working to get. Another tip I heard, and tried out, is to start with a price higher than the highest you think they're willing to part with. Even if you cringe to say it. On the logic that the price can easily come down, but it's far harder for you to push it back up. (If they accept your first offer, the reasoning goes, you didn't go nearly high enough. Remember, that first price can affect you for years.) It worked for me, though of course YMMV. (For those who cringe in salary negotiations, Graeber's _Debt: The First 500 Years_ may give you some perspective on why it makes you feel bad.) Definitely helps to get in a position where you interview people. (Not to mention salary negotiations.) Then it'll be clear what employers want, and what other developers do. Based on that, you can present what they truly desire. Take for example do-at-home projects. If you can solve them, then you can really hit them out of the ballpark. The first time I reviewed the solutions, I saw that only one or two had neat complete-ish solutions. (Most had significant cut corners; one was written by an insane fellow.) It was easy to see how to go beyond the best ones: make a build file, a readme that's worthy of a good opensource project, etc.
zzzeek 15y ago
> Plus, there's an obvious class component. The further removed you are from working with your hands, the higher value you're perceived to have. I like this point a lot, and it makes sense, but then I thought, how come it doesn't apply to athletes ?
- mseebach 15y ago
  Because it doesn't actually have anything to do with "working with your hands". Craftsmen are probably a better example - a talented craftsman, like an athlete, though he's working with his body, can command soaring rates. The classical worker, the kind I believe the GP meant to refer to, is a commodity. It's the kind of workers it might make sense to hire as day labourers and, conversely, for whom collective bargaining is beneficial. There has been a tendency for some businesses to treat programmers as this kind of workers, often leading to failed off-shoring efforts.
- sector 15y ago
  It's not a class issue. A more accurate appraisal would be that one is paid highest for strategic work, next highest for tactical, and the least for operational work. If you're great at operational work, but are no good with tactics or strategy, you won't ever get a huge salary, in the office or in sports. After all, look at pro-sports salaries and you'll see that the highest paid players are the ones who are put in situations where they have the ability to make potentially critical decisions, and who have a history of being relatively good with those calls.
- drcube 15y ago
  It did, for a hundred years. Professional athletes (outside of a few rare "rock stars" like Babe Ruth) often had to get second jobs in the off season up until the 1970s. If they wanted to continue playing sports professionally, they were at the whim of their team's owner, who could and did forbid them from playing for any other team. Read up on the Reserve clause and Curt Flood for more info about how this all changed starting with Major League Baseball in the 1970s.

jonnathanson 15y ago

"The further removed you are from working with your hands, the higher value you're perceived to have." It's that, but it's also (perceived) pedigree. A lot of "business analysts" come from big consultancies like McKinsey, or investment banks like Goldman, et al. Managers and MBA-types have a mystical perception of those firms -- almost as if they trained jedi business knights. The truth may be far from it, at least in my experience. But perception usually trumps truth.

tomkarlo 15y ago

More importantly, from a bargaining power perspective, you have to look at their BATNA - best alternative to a negotiated agreement. A programmer is going to take a bigger pay hit switching to another job type than an MBA'ed project manager. In many cases, a project manager may be making less than they would in a management role of another type (e.g. consulting or finance.) That's going to drive up the minimum wage they'll accept, and drive up the overall price as well. The best way to improve bargaining power is to be willing to walk away at a higher offer.

calibraxis 15y ago
Yeah, being willing to walk away for a better offer is the most encouraging thing to have in your pocket. That's worth working to get. Another tip I heard, and tried out, is to start with a price higher than the highest you think they're willing to part with. Even if you cringe to say it. On the logic that the price can easily come down, but it's far harder for you to push it back up. (If they accept your first offer, the reasoning goes, you didn't go nearly high enough. Remember, that first price can affect you for years.) It worked for me, though of course YMMV. (For those who cringe in salary negotiations, Graeber's _Debt: The First 500 Years_ may give you some perspective on why it makes you feel bad.) Definitely helps to get in a position where you interview people. (Not to mention salary negotiations.) Then it'll be clear what employers want, and what other developers do. Based on that, you can present what they truly desire. Take for example do-at-home projects. If you can solve them, then you can really hit them out of the ballpark. The first time I reviewed the solutions, I saw that only one or two had neat complete-ish solutions. (Most had significant cut corners; one was written by an insane fellow.) It was easy to see how to go beyond the best ones: make a build file, a readme that's worthy of a good opensource project, etc.

zzzeek 15y ago

> Plus, there's an obvious class component. The further removed you are from working with your hands, the higher value you're perceived to have. I like this point a lot, and it makes sense, but then I thought, how come it doesn't apply to athletes ?

mseebach 15y ago
Because it doesn't actually have anything to do with "working with your hands". Craftsmen are probably a better example - a talented craftsman, like an athlete, though he's working with his body, can command soaring rates. The classical worker, the kind I believe the GP meant to refer to, is a commodity. It's the kind of workers it might make sense to hire as day labourers and, conversely, for whom collective bargaining is beneficial. There has been a tendency for some businesses to treat programmers as this kind of workers, often leading to failed off-shoring efforts.
sector 15y ago
It's not a class issue. A more accurate appraisal would be that one is paid highest for strategic work, next highest for tactical, and the least for operational work. If you're great at operational work, but are no good with tactics or strategy, you won't ever get a huge salary, in the office or in sports. After all, look at pro-sports salaries and you'll see that the highest paid players are the ones who are put in situations where they have the ability to make potentially critical decisions, and who have a history of being relatively good with those calls.
drcube 15y ago
It did, for a hundred years. Professional athletes (outside of a few rare "rock stars" like Babe Ruth) often had to get second jobs in the off season up until the 1970s. If they wanted to continue playing sports professionally, they were at the whim of their team's owner, who could and did forbid them from playing for any other team. Read up on the Reserve clause and Curt Flood for more info about how this all changed starting with Major League Baseball in the 1970s.