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"For most developers and even a fair number of users open source isn't a fuzzy concept but a very concrete technical term describing a very particular kind of l

"For most developers and even a fair number of users open source isn't a fuzzy concept but a very concrete technical term describing a very particular kind of license. " A particular kind, yes. The OSI definition? I'd want to see something that showed objectively that this is what people think. I saw some projects I support come under fire for not being open source recently- I've been. a user and supporter of FOSS software for a long time. I didn't realize that making exclusions on who can use your software wasn't open source. If a developer doesn't want their code used in a weapons system, it doesn't meet the OSI definition. I know it now, but then I think that leaves the software to use a term that's much less accurate. I don't think that happens because they have a profit motive and want to exploit the term open source. In fact I've seen licenses that are essentially open source except they try to stop people from making a bunch of money off of community work, including those currently controlling the project.

seba_dos1 4y ago
I spent half of my life around Open Source and Free Software. The only cases where people questioned the OSD definition of "Open Source" I've ever seen were either projects that wanted to benefit from the positive clout the term has gained over years without actually doing their part in return, or people who were clearly confused on what this term actually means (usually in relation to Free Software), tried to explain it to someone else and when pointed out they're wrong they didn't want to admit their mistake and went "but OSI can't dictate what this term means". Never seen it used differently in an actual, honest and informed way anywhere that matters. > I didn't realize that making exclusions on who can use your software wasn't open source. Really? How? Isn't that incredibly obvious? If my license says "this software can only be used by Jane Doe from Boston", is it FLOSS? Or even "only by people who pay me $2000 every month for using it"? After all, it's just a (large) exclusion on who can use my software. If a license tries to stop people from making money, it's clearly not "essentially open source" in its very nature. In its essence, "open source" means "everyone can use it, and no limitations can be placed other than this particular set of acceptable restrictions". How can you expect that placing additional arbitrary restrictions still gives you the right to call your thing "open source"?
- stoolpigeon 4y ago
  "Isn't that incredibly obvious? " I just asserted that it is not. That was my entire point. I'm not sure how you missed it. Your assertion that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a liar is problematic. I recommend really thinking about it and the ramifications. You are saying millions of people all agree with you or they are dishonest. Or possibly confused and they will agree with you when the confusion is cleared (unless they are dishonest). I can say I am not convinced and I'm not a liar or a person who is defensive and embarrassed by my not knowing this previously. I was not aware of this provision that the software must be available for any use until this year (I've been using/involved with FOSS software for about 22 years - unfortunately a good number of years less than half my life) and it didn't occur to me as being necessary because to me saying something like, "this is open source except for military use" or "this is open source for non-profits" seems just as reasonable as "you can't modify this code and distribute binaries unless you distribute that new code". For people willing to agree to the terms, it is open. For the people unwilling to agree it is not. I've never been really involved on the legal end of it all. In business contexts I used whatever was approved and the personal projects I've done, I've always used an MIT license because it was the easiest for me to understand. I found out about this on github when I saw some issues opened on a project, because it was described as open source but the license didn't fit the OSI description. I found it to be interesting but also disappointing because it seems to be an issue of "comply or be attacked". There were links about why the vitriol was justified, but I read through it all and wasn't persuaded that the anger directed at the project owner was appropriate. A license by its very nature restricts things. It's just a matter of which things and I think there is room in this space to be a good actor and have a different opinion. As the GPL says, "To protect your rights, we need to make restrictions..." I don't see a long chain from "I don't want anyone to keep you from reading and modifying this code" to "I don't want someone to use this code to create an environment that takes away the human rights necessary to read and modify this code". The fallback position I've seen is the one repeated here - "Everyone already knows and agrees with this except bad actors." and I just doubt that's true. Too many people make software and it's too large a group for me to take at face value any claims regarding a majority understanding. I'd want to see something objective that shows the work was done to know this rather than it just being an opinion or reflective of anecdotal evidence.

seba_dos1 4y ago

I spent half of my life around Open Source and Free Software. The only cases where people questioned the OSD definition of "Open Source" I've ever seen were either projects that wanted to benefit from the positive clout the term has gained over years without actually doing their part in return, or people who were clearly confused on what this term actually means (usually in relation to Free Software), tried to explain it to someone else and when pointed out they're wrong they didn't want to admit their mistake and went "but OSI can't dictate what this term means". Never seen it used differently in an actual, honest and informed way anywhere that matters. > I didn't realize that making exclusions on who can use your software wasn't open source. Really? How? Isn't that incredibly obvious? If my license says "this software can only be used by Jane Doe from Boston", is it FLOSS? Or even "only by people who pay me $2000 every month for using it"? After all, it's just a (large) exclusion on who can use my software. If a license tries to stop people from making money, it's clearly not "essentially open source" in its very nature. In its essence, "open source" means "everyone can use it, and no limitations can be placed other than this particular set of acceptable restrictions". How can you expect that placing additional arbitrary restrictions still gives you the right to call your thing "open source"?

stoolpigeon 4y ago
"Isn't that incredibly obvious? " I just asserted that it is not. That was my entire point. I'm not sure how you missed it. Your assertion that everyone who doesn't agree with you is a liar is problematic. I recommend really thinking about it and the ramifications. You are saying millions of people all agree with you or they are dishonest. Or possibly confused and they will agree with you when the confusion is cleared (unless they are dishonest). I can say I am not convinced and I'm not a liar or a person who is defensive and embarrassed by my not knowing this previously. I was not aware of this provision that the software must be available for any use until this year (I've been using/involved with FOSS software for about 22 years - unfortunately a good number of years less than half my life) and it didn't occur to me as being necessary because to me saying something like, "this is open source except for military use" or "this is open source for non-profits" seems just as reasonable as "you can't modify this code and distribute binaries unless you distribute that new code". For people willing to agree to the terms, it is open. For the people unwilling to agree it is not. I've never been really involved on the legal end of it all. In business contexts I used whatever was approved and the personal projects I've done, I've always used an MIT license because it was the easiest for me to understand. I found out about this on github when I saw some issues opened on a project, because it was described as open source but the license didn't fit the OSI description. I found it to be interesting but also disappointing because it seems to be an issue of "comply or be attacked". There were links about why the vitriol was justified, but I read through it all and wasn't persuaded that the anger directed at the project owner was appropriate. A license by its very nature restricts things. It's just a matter of which things and I think there is room in this space to be a good actor and have a different opinion. As the GPL says, "To protect your rights, we need to make restrictions..." I don't see a long chain from "I don't want anyone to keep you from reading and modifying this code" to "I don't want someone to use this code to create an environment that takes away the human rights necessary to read and modify this code". The fallback position I've seen is the one repeated here - "Everyone already knows and agrees with this except bad actors." and I just doubt that's true. Too many people make software and it's too large a group for me to take at face value any claims regarding a majority understanding. I'd want to see something objective that shows the work was done to know this rather than it just being an opinion or reflective of anecdotal evidence.